Wounded, evacuated then no service record ?

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by middy, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. middy

    middy Junior Member

    My dad was in the 65th Medium Regiment and was wounded on 13th June 1944 in Normandy. He was evacuated to emergency hospitals in UK and put on Y list.
    Nothing else appears on his record until discharged in May 1945.
    His Regiment and Battery remained in NWE until mid/end 1945.
    I have no idea where he spent the next 11 months as his recorded location(s) ceased in June 44. I do not think he would be hospitalised for 11 months but on discharge was given as '' permanently unfit for any form of military service ''.
    Has anyone any suggestions as to how i can find out what /where he was as he still seems to be on the Regiments ''books'' for almost a year,rather than being discharged at the time.? Hope someone can help?

    Middy
     
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  2. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    The answer will be in his medical records but MOD, unlike Canada & Australia, don't release them - unless in unusual circumstances.

    If his circumstances are anything like those WW1 files (and Canadian WW2 files online) I have seen previously your father likely passed through several medical establishments - hospitals, convalescent homes etc - as the Army sought to get him fit enough to return to NWE.

    At the end of the medical process and prior to his medical discharge he would have appeared before a medical board who would have considered the facts and concluded he ought to have been discharged. Medical Board reports I have seen are very detailed and amongst other things note all the medical establishments a soldier passed through as well as detailed reports on the injuries sustained and the treatment provided.

    It's a great shame MOD don't release medical reports but they hide behind patient confidentiality. I saw a post on the forum a week or so ago that South Africa are to adopt the MOD practice and withhold medical information as there are now belated concerns about releasing details of some of the STD's suffered.

    Steve Y
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
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  3. middy

    middy Junior Member

    Hi Steve,

    Many thanks for your reply.

    I did apply to the Army Personnel Centre Support Division for access to my dad's medical records in June this year .
    In addition to wanting to know what had happened to him i was also enquiring to find out if a genetic condition, potentially fatal, recently diagnosed in both my sister and i ( as well as some of our children) had been passed down by either our father or mother. Their Sessional Medical Advisor deemed it insufficient reason to release his records.

    However, if i had been chasing money via inheritance or litigation for his estate then i would have been successful. No appeal procedure, end of communication, sort yourself out is how it read. 50% of my parents ancestors have the risk of inheriting the gene and countless current/future new borns and children not yet tested will have to go through unsettling and distressing procedures to see if they are carriers.

    My dad died 50 years ago at the age of 48. There is no rational explanation as to why i (at 69) cannot see his records whilst a Medical administrator can read it at his/her will and make a judgement.

    Sorry for the detail but it gets it off my chest as to what a politically correct driven country we have become.

    Thanks again,

    John (MIDDY)
     
  4. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    I don't know if they hide behind the 100 year rule John for data protection. It (frustratingly) covers an array of archives. But that's a guess and not an explanation as to why they withhold the military info.

    We went through a DNA study for our sons condition. We weren't keen in terms of data protection, but thought the more samples available to study, the sooner they find a cure. Would this be possible for your families condition?
     
  5. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi John,

    I'm so sorry to read of your family medical conditions and your failure to secure release of your fathers medical documents. Have you considered contacting your MP to take the matter further?

    Good Luck

    Steve
     
  6. middy

    middy Junior Member

    Many thanks for your comments and views. Sorry to learn about your son's condition ''amberdog45'' .One of my sisters Granddaughters has already been diagnosed with the condition so she will possibly pass it on to her children. As a result i am now considering involving our consultant on the question of obtaining medical records for both my father and mother to see if he has more influence with the records office.

    They hide behind the Access to Health Records Act 1990 with the Army Personnel Centre stating in their reply to me that their policy is '' that these are only released for the purpose of inheritance or litigation ''

    I am though still continuing with the other objective of ''following in my dad's footsteps'' through this excellent site.
    Cheers,

    John
     
  7. 379/101 HAA

    379/101 HAA Ubique

    Sorry to ask what may seem some naive questions here, but I`ve been following this thread with interest as I`m aware from my own Grandfather`s service record and regimental documents that he spent some time in hospital in India and had assumed everything there was to be had would be on his service record. As it stands I don`t know what he was suffering from, albeit I have a slight clue in a letter he wrote.

    You`ll have to excuse me because I don`t have an indepth knowledge of service records, but are we saying here that the Army Personnel Records office keep separate medical files which they don`t give out with service record applications? Reading this thread it appears they do and they`re subject to a 100 year rule.

    But surely if the soldier is deceased and has only one direct descendant (me) who wants that record, on what grounds could that possibly be refused? I mean, who is it actually hurting?

    Also, as these are military medical records, does it mean they are exempted from the Data Protection Act?

    MTIA

    John
     
  8. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    I can't address any specifics but can say that the Army will have retained all medical information gathered on a soldier during his service (same for airmen and sailors) presumably as a form of protection in case a post discharge claim for compensation/ pension were to arise either before or after death by the serviceman or relative. Certainly Canada, Australia & South Africa have retained medical papers as far back as for WW1 service personnel.

    UK Military papers used to be subject to a 75 year release rule - 75 years after the date of discharge - but with the Freedom of Information Act Army Personnel Centre will release papers on application thus release of the papers is likely a Data Protection Act exemption.

    In relation to medical papers contained in the service papers - as Middy says - they rely on current NHS rules.

    Steve Y
     
  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    John

    I have only just received medical records (if you can call them that) for my Great Uncle, who was wounded in 1917 and after 3 weeks in a Scottish hospital was discharged from there on 6th Aug 1917.
    From my initial request 5 years ago I now have info that tells me he was admitted with shrapnel wounds to head and leg - thats about 90% of the info I received. Maybe WW2 medical records are better.

    What I'm saying is that it will be a long road to obtain the info you are after - patience is needed

    TD
     
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  10. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Richard,

    Did you receive your recent papers direct from the Scottish Hospital or from MOD?

    The Canadian & Australian WW1 files available online usually have fully documented records of medical evacuations and full chapter and verse on the injuries sustained and treatment provided - either in contemporaneous RAMC reports - temperature charts etc - or in summaries on Medical Board papers.

    I've found the same standard of detail in many Canadian online WW2 files - often with bloodstained Field Medical Cards as the starting point in the medical chain of evidence.

    Steve
     
  11. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    TD, after all that waiting was that all you got?
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Steve - yes they came via email from the Scottish hospital medical records department

    Amberdog45 - that was all I got :reallymad::banghead::mad:

    TD
     
  13. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    What you are requesting is all about 'inheritance', namely, inheriting a medical condition. Does the Access to Health Records Act 1990 include a definition of 'inheritance' - is it only money or does a wider definition apply - or perhaps it has no definition - which could also be useful, ergo, if there is no definition who are they to apply a narrow one based on 'their policy' (as the law doesn't)? Regardless, maybe you should 'litigate' as it would then appear that you meet one of their 'release' conditions. If 'money' is an issue there are lawyers out there that do pro bono work.

    In my working life I have been used to government organisations using the law as an obstacle; a means of saying 'no' or stopping people doing 'X' or 'Y', but much about the law is actually to enable individuals; it carries your rights. You should use it to your advantage and don't let them put you off. I would get stuck into the intransigent 'so-and-so's'!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
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  14. Shiny 9th

    Shiny 9th Member

    Middy, Apart from writing to your MP who might well wish to take an interest in your case, have you enlisted the help of any Patients Association for the medical condition concerned.The more people you can get to help you, even lobbying for an amendment to current legislation, the better.I would play up the potential of the inherited medical problem and keep the "curiosity about dad" out of any correspondence.Good luck
     
  15. middy

    middy Junior Member

    Sorry for late response to all who have commented, i have been absent from the computer all day. Many thanks for your advice and comments. I am planning on taking a stepped process by firstly involving the Consultant in Clinical Genetics who has been guiding my sister and i through the ' Gene mistake ' identification procedure. If i can get his backing he should be able to put his weight behind the request as he may be able to clarify if the symptoms were identifiable in hospital patients in the 40's. The logic of either confirming my father or my mother ( also deceased ) as the Genetic defect source would potentially allow current and future descendants to seek referral to their local Genetic Service to get information and advice in their own right. One side of the family could at least save the NHS in costs!

    I have taken all the other suggestions you have made on board and will pursue if i get more blockages.

    As John (371/ 101 HAA ) asked '' who is it actually hurting '' if his son sees his records ?

    Many thanks again.

    John
     
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  16. 379/101 HAA

    379/101 HAA Ubique

    Thanks for all the replys.Obtaining medical records really does appear to be a legal minefield when you start digging into the various acts quoted.

    Middy, this document has something of interest perhaps. It relates to the Access to Health Records Act 1990?

    https://www.igt.hscic.gov.uk/WhatsNewDocuments/Access to Health Records Feb 2010.pdf

    Page 15, Item 46 states: Relatives, friends and carers may have a range of important reasons for requesting information about deceased patients. For example, helping a relative understand the cause of death and actions taken to ease suffering of the patient at the time may help aid the bereavement process, or providing living relatives with genetic information about a hereditary condition may improve health outcomes for the surviving relatives of the deceased.

    If the MoD are hiding behind this act in a more general sense to prevent the release of medical records of deceased servicemen, then there is more in this document to suggest sufficient pressure might provide wriggle room to obtain at least basic medical details, although I suspect it would require a determined effort.

    For my part I`m just very surprised to find out through this thread that there`s probably more I could learn about my Grandfather`s wartime service, and most likely his death as well, but that the information is being effectively witheld from his next of kin. Mind you, I shouldn`t be so surprised I suppose. It took me several attempts to find out the truth about his burial and re-burials from the CWGC and even now I have a suspicion I don`t have the complete story. Considering the number of times he was re-buried I find it very hard to believe that they don`t have forms from the various GRU`s which were involved in the process.

    Best of luck Middy.

    Regards

    John
     
  17. middy

    middy Junior Member

    Hi John,
    Thanks for the link and your supporting comments.It sounds as though you have been 'put through the mill' yourself in trying to obtain information on your late Grandfather. You would think that being next of kin would override the bureaucracy. Good luck with your endeavours and i will let you know i get on,

    Regards,
    John
     
  18. Clive Wiley

    Clive Wiley Member

    I made this post 3 years ago from my Dads note book of the men he picked up with name rank number and injury . I did hope that someone might see one of their relations when searching Google. I didn't know that the MOD wont give hospital records until I saw this post. I got my Dads records last December and I see that after the 26th of July 44 the last entry he made, he was in and out of hospital and I don't know why.
    1/5 Queens Royal West Surrey's Stretcher Bearers note book from Villers Bocage to 26 July
     
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