As far as I am aware the HE111 ( union) and the 323 glider were not developed for use when the invasion was being plannedand only came into service afterwards when events had moved on. I do think ( and don't doubt) that initially Hitler did intend to invade and if circumstances had been right would have done so and preparation did start with that in mind but the nature of the preparations would have cast serious doubt on the ability of Germany to mount a successful invasion and highlighted the potential risks of the enterprise. The initial landings might have been possible but potentially at a cost and there is little boubt that the Germans would have been aware that they would only have been able to depend on what they could get across the Channel and anything captured would only have been a bonus and might only have been use at local level. Given the later problems which they encountered with airlifts in the face of an effective enemy airforce it would have been a huge gamble. The advance lines on the map are similar to those seen in Russia easy to draw but difficult to achieve. I don't doubt that there was an initial expectation that invasion had to follow but that this changed durring the course of the summer weeks. The Army looked (quite rightly) to the navy for a lead - an undertaking that they could do it and they looked to the Luftwaffe ( quite rightly) for an undertaking that they could control the the Channel coast over England and contain the RAF and the Royal Navy - this was a cheque which Goreing could not cash , and as the promised easy victory did not appear confidence in Sealion ebbed. The ability to "go" quickly after Dunkirk did not exist and only an overwhelming German ability to invade at that time might have produced success. Fall Green has been mentioned as a diversion from Sealion - even there it was way beyond the ability of the Germans to invade Ireland , dropping paratroops on Long Kesh and at Aldergrove to capture airfields and to back this up with a meaningful landing of troops by sea. Crete was an example of a latter day Sealion type plan - the Germans controlled the air ( which they failed to achieve over G.B.) , the British the sea - no specialist invasion shipping existed and the violence and surprise of the assult would either bring success or threaten failure. Crete was so close and denied an airfield for a day or two longer it would have failed. How likely is that complete surprise could have been achieved ? Whilst the Germans would have been landing on limited fronts they would have been resisted on the same frontage against the background of a potentially disastereous and vunerable supply line. Sealion was one of the few situation in the Fuhrer HQ in which reality dealt with the military issues involved - perhaps this was only possible beacuse Hitlers willingness to "go for broke" was tempered by his desire to square accounts with Russia and end his marriage of convience with Stalin ?
ME-323 - a glider to begin with , one which would have been and which proved to be hugely vunerable. Passchendaele Baby, The plane you mentioned that was cut in two, was actually two He 111 Bombers with a central extra wing panel built to carry an extra fifth motor. It was commonly called the Zwilling or Twin. Regards Tom wow, thanks
While Hitler intended to crush any opponents in his desire to be the master of Europe,he had a burning desire to invade the Soviet Union and Germanise the vast lands to the Urals,the Baltic states,the Ukraine and the Kuban peninsula.In 1940/ 1941,he looked on Great Britain,"England", the old enemy as a fellow Aryan state and was anxious to reach some accomodation with England for Germany to have a free hand in Europe and beyond. Germany, for their part would not to interfere with the British Empire.This did not materialise despite the encouraging views of Ribbentrop and efforts to find leading compliant British influencial personalities.Such a understanding would have eliminated the need to fight on two fronts. Meanwhile Operation Sealion preparations were in hand but were hampered during mid 1940 onwards by the RAF raids on the coastal points where it was known invasion barges were concentrated.It took two years for the Allies to prepare for D Day in terms of manpower,training and up to date equipment including the what was identified as most essential,that is the naval force and its landing craft.The German forces and equipment on the Continent to be overcome would be at a stronger level than the defences available to Britain in 1940 but in 1940, as 1944, the prerequisite for a succesful invasion of Britain or Europe was control of the Channel air and seaspace.Hitler could not be guaranteed that this would be the case and in any event, the decision to invade England was overrun by Hitler's intense motivation to invade Russia. With the Sealion plan there would be number of German military, economic and administration departments with plans laid down for the occupation of England which came to nought, as Hitler put the decision to invade to one side.We would now term the decision to be a "trade off" with Hitler deciding that the prize of the Soviet Union territory, its mineral wealth and open space and its weak Red Army (as he thought from the Stalin blood letting of the 1937 Red Army purge) would be no match for the undefeated Wehrmacht.The invasion of England could wait.
Meanwhile Operation Sealion preparations were in hand but were hampered during mid 1940 onwards by the RAF raids on the coastal points where it was known invasion barges were concentrated. IIRC, in the 17 days (3rd to 20th of September 1940), bomber raids on the "invading force" in France destroyed more than 20% of their landing barges.
I voted yes because at the time, Germany and its Blitzkrig not had any defeat. The original plans was having the desired effect (but the Luftwaffe pilots increase the real results). Fortunately (or unfortunately) the German strategy has been changed to the "bombing of terror", attacking London and surrounding areas, saving the RAF that can recover and ultimately prevent the German Plan of conquest. Regards Adriano
Harry - Hitler said that the defeat of the USSR would end England's last hope and she would have to come to terms with Germany. He would seem to have discounted ( in his own mind) America becoming drawn into the war. Why in God's name he declared war on America is something of a mystery. I saw something on TV a while back which stated that the BoB was a battle the Luftwaffe could not win and even ehwn they thought they were winning things were moving against them. The BoB was a conflict which a Luftwaffe bred to be a supporting tool of the Army was totally ill equipted to win - they lacked a suitabvle heavy bomber and the 109 lacked the preformance to escort and defend bombers whilst disposing of a well directed modern fighter force. Apart fromn achieveing contgrol of the Channel , could the Germans maintain that control ?
Why in God's name he declared war on America is soemthing of a mystery. And this act as much as the invasion of Russia sealed Germany's fate. Pandoras chest had been unlocked and there was no way back for them.
I believe he had all intentions to invade. Once he had conquered Russia, why would he want to stop there? After USSR, we would be next, then he'd have probably moved his intention on occupying the USA. Pure greed was his downfall.
Apart fromn achieveing contgrol of the Channel , could the Germans maintain that control ? Not a chance. Norway left the KM with only 4 undamaged capital ships and 4 undamaged destroyers. The KM plan was to "secure" the channel with smaller vessels of the S-boat class, the Norway campaign having not touched German coastal vessels - and use the surviving surface ships and U-boats in the North Sea. Minefields were to close the Channel end of the Western Approaches. Against THIS "mighty" fleet, the RN mustered a destroyer force of thirty-six destroyers divided into three flotillas each under a cruiser as command ship, based at Medway, Southampton and Portsmouth. Together with these they had all the vessels of the RN Patrol Service in the South of England for ASW and anti-mine duties - literally hundreds of assets. When gamed at Sandhurst in the famous reconstructions of the 1970s, the Home Fleet sortied from Scapa Flow on the first day of the invasion, cleared the North Sea in two days and entered the Channel on the third - cutting the "sea bridge" to the South of England and shelling the bridgehead to bits. Three days wouldn't have been enough for the Germans on land to advance out of naval gunnery range...
From what I know about Hitler, thus far, I do not believe he was bluffing. I think he would have tried invading. I'm under the impression that in the end he would not have succeeded, but I do believe he would have tried. Wasn't there some talk of him sending Germans to the US for reconnaissance and mapping out the land? I thought I heard that somewhere, perhaps I'm mistaking. Please let me know.
if the germans could have gained the french fleet in vicht controlled naval bases and managed to combine and get them combined on the french coast near the channel - if they could have neutralized Gibraltar by the help of spain - if they had gotten the french fleet franco might have been talked into it or at least give germans access with german troops in spain - could they have done that then they would maybe have been able to gain local naval control of the area needed - otherwise the wast assembled mass of shipping - as mess of everything while not covering the needs would simply have been shot to pulp - besides a lot of the shipping was so poor that i would only have been usable in very good weather - and while they may have been able to gain momentary naval control - what about after 48 hours? 96 hours? no - even with all this "what if" the sealion is a messy thing....and when problems with shipping could be resolved by 41 the english had enough troops to push back and atleast contain the troops the germans could ship over by then in the first and possible the second wave - the next wave would be slaughtered by the navy even with the french navy in german control...
CCDK, A socialist is only a communist without a gun! John. oh i see - I have a large walking stick - old style about 1.8 meters in length i use when i go on long walks - it may not be a gun but would you be ready to consider it a weapon?
Dara Wasn't there some talk of him sending Germans to the US for reconnaissance and mapping out the land? I thought I heard that somewhere, perhaps I'm mistaking. Please let me know. He did send spies to te US but they achieved little and all were caught- sabotage was their main task. Some "turned" and a number were executed. Jak Showell's U-Boats at War landiongs on Hostile Shores" (Ian Allen .2000) overs the landing of spys and agents from U-Boats.
He did send spies to te US but they achieved little and all were caught- sabotage was their main task. Some "turned" and a number were executed. I did see a documentary on the history channel about this! Concerns the landing in 1942 of "eight German-Americans, equipped to carry out sabotage, on the U.S. coast -- whereupon their leader telephoned the FBI to turn in himself and his fellows." President Roosevelt "ordered a secret military trial.... The government announced that six of the defendants had been executed and the remaining two given long prison sentences."
He did send spies to te US but they achieved little and all were caught- sabotage was their main task. Some "turned" and a number were executed. I see, thanks for clearing that up for me. I think that mentally he thought he was invincible. I wouldn't put it past him to have been thinking about taking over anything he saw on a map.
From J.S. book some brief details of the numbers landed and locations. The show I saw included the spies from 1&2 on your list. I haven't read anything about the 1944 landings.
Thanks for the map. I can't believe he actually thought that might work. I guess if you believe in something long and hard enough, it might come true. lol
if the germans could have gained the french fleet in vicht controlled naval bases and managed to combine and get them combined on the french coast near the channel - Hitler didn't want the French Fleet; he specifically wanted it removed from the gamebaord of the war completely...which is why the June Armistice mandates that the French gather it in French ports under German and Italian overseers and have their guns removed. Also, capital ships operating in the Channel are vulnerable; a lot of the Channel is actually quite shallow - look for instance at the three narrow sea routes had mines and the shallows meant the RN etc. had to be sail into Dunkirk. Also, they have large turning circles - Vichy capital ships operating with the invasion fleet would cause immense traffic problems. They'd also be a BIG target for the RAF.
