So, how do they go about doing it? How does the U.S. attack Europe? Do they retake Britain first? Where is their staging area? Does the American armada land at Liverpool? Is D-Day in Scotland? Were there contingency plans on how America would invade Britain? There was whatiffery enough in this Sealion thread already, now we have the Anti-Sealion discussion
You bet your life on it..he would have invaded. .But decided on Barbarossa ..... Bloody good job he did we had nothing to stop him. Not even the Home Guard with our three rounds of 303.. What was disturbing was the number of senior Tories that wanted to open negotiations and make peace with Hitler. Thing is, there was a sizable Tory rump in favour of peace negotians. How history would have chnaged had those MPs had their way...... Lord Halifax tried to negotiate peace with the Nazis Lord Halifax, Britain's Foreign Secretary at the outbreak of the Second World War, secretly met with an Old Etonian who tried to broker a peace deal with the Nazis, according to newly-declassified security files. What is more, he had a powerful following but for Churchill who won out in the end, The heading the Telegraph! I recall the times and the movement for an agreement with Hitler Sapper
Perhaps the saving grace was that they did not have the craft to invade nor the ships to protect them. River barges powered by aero engines in the Channel in a moderate sea would have been a bloody nightmare, the Rhine was never quite like the Channel. Had they got ashore supply would have been a major problem , forget the Stalingrad airlift, they would have been cut to ribbons. Without an assurance that the RAF and RN could be kept away from the landing areas Hitler knew invasion was a risk he simply just could not take. Goring was not getting anywhere fast and the Navy had already told him they did not have the ships to get the barges across the Channel safely. Although perhaps we did not know it at the time the window for a possible invasion was small and August ran towards September time and weather conditions slipped away from the Germans and before that Hitler's eyes were turning eastwards.
Nor was that Halifax' ONLY attempt.... http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/24475-opportunity-missed-luftwaffe.html#post268126
I agree entirely with James S-the move would have been an absolute disaster and that is why I do think he "seriously" intended to carry out the the planned invasion-at that time in his life he still had his wits and I do not think he trusted Goering to bring him victory on a plate. jainso31
The Battle of Britain and the Blitz weren't bluffs so why would the invasion be? I voted No. I don't think he would have done it. I think the Battle of Britain and the Blitz were about as far as he was willing to go. Hoping that Britain's "will to fight" would diminish to the point of negotiation. Sea Lion looked good on Paper but the German army was not amphibious. Their army's success was based on the speed of their armor making sweeping breakthroughs (in very general terms), and it would have been difficult to get even Panzer IV's off the beaches. Assuming that could have gotten past the Royal Navy. Politically Hitler wanted to take Paris because the Germans missed it in WWI, and it was important to "correct that blunder of the previous Reich." Basically proving that Hitler's Germany was better than its predecessors. Philisophically, He really didn't have much problem with the English. They were good Aryans. And probably would have "eventually come around" to his way of thinking. Sadly, it was quite possible, at least in the USA the idea of Aryan dominance was quite popular at that time, and I don't mean just in the South, either. If I recall the English were pretty big fans of the idea of their genetic superiority as well. (I'd have to find some sources.) Although it has been largely swept under the rug with the discovery of the Holocaust camps. Honestly, I think that if the Germans didn't have to take Paris for pride's sake they probably would have gone east the whole time. Asperon Thorn
and it would have been difficult to get even Panzer IV's off the beaches. Leaving aside the WHOLE question of their being able to do so under air attack/ground attack/ artillery/attack/naval gunfire... This is an interesting question; historically, for OVERLORD, the Allies made a whole series of tests and took samples of bach sand etc...frogmen creeping ashore at night, Malcolm Campbell bouncing a pogostick along a French beach at midnite on Xmas Eve 1943, etc. etc...AND prepared a range of roadlaying funnies to allow them to get heavy vehicles ashore over soft sand, whether wet or dry... There's a point between each and every tide when exposed beach sand contains JUST the right amount of water to be quite firm and weightbearing; more and it becomes too soft to negotiate - too dry and it becomes difficult to negotiate for other reasons. Equally important is the duration of these safe periods for moving heavy traffic back and forth... What I'd be very interested in finding out was did the British ever retrospectively carry out the same tests/analyses of BRITISH beaches I know there was an eight-week period of kneejerk fortification/defences building - and specific beaches were identified as at greater risk than others (that list of beaches for gas spraying/saturation)....but did they ever carry out weightbearing tests at Channel beaches like they later did at Normandy?
Honestly, I think that if the Germans didn't have to take Paris for pride's sake they probably would have gone east the whole time. I wasn't exactly hard - Paris was declared an open city befor ethe Germans arrived so they just walked in by which time the government had moved to Tours then later to Bordeaux. I can't believe some members are still debating if Hitler intended to invade when there is an official, signed document in German by Jodl stating that the Germans did have the intention to invade the UK in post No. 162. If that ain't proof I don't what is
I wasn't exactly hard - Paris was declared an open city before the Germans arrived so they just walked in by which time the government had moved to Tours then later to Bordeaux. I can't believe some members are still debating if Hitler intended to invade when there is an official, signed document in German by Jodl stating that the Germans did have the intention to invade the UK in post No. 162. If that ain't proof I don't what is No it wasn't hard by the time they got there. But in the previous war they couldn't and it was always the objective. "Get to Paris." My point being that "Preparing" and "Doing" are two entirely different things. Certainly Hitler had to prepare to invade a country that was at war with him. But as the preperations began to show the sheer scope of what an invasion of Britain would entail they called it off. It wasn't really a serious objective to begin with, more like a "target of opportunity." Even Post 162 shows that they only "prepared" for a few months. That hardly displays the efficiency, motivation, and planning that Germany was capable of in 1940. Not to mention that any document from Jodl created in 1945 is hardly substantial proof of anything since he was being used as one of the scapegoats in absence of Hitler himself. Asperon Thorn
I would say that in view of the materials and equipment left behind at Dunkirk that the British ability to defend would have been limited - agreed the Germans had to create a bridgehead and beat of the Navy however all hinged on the air battle German control of the air would have negated British naval power, and I think in the face of a successful invasion post-Dunkirk the politicians would have sued for peace in Britain and tried to continue the war from Canada - however the USA would have been under immense pressure from the German and isolationist lobbies to keep out of another European entanglement. The Jodl plans existed from 1940 and were not thought up in 1945 as an placebo for the Allies.
The Jodl plans existed from 1940 and were not thought up in 1945 as an placebo for the Allies. I didn't mean to suggest that the plans for Operation Sea Lion didn't exist in 1940. I would venture to say they may have existed as early as 1933. But as was habit for all of the world powers at the time. Operations and invasion plans were often made for all contingencies all the time. Plans to invade Mexico if they joined the Axis were drawn up in the United States, although never acted upon. The US also had plans to engage GB in the event that hostilities with Japan broke out and Britain honored their 1920's alliance with Japan. War Plan Red - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (although I hate wikipedia, it works for this.) So the fact that Operation Sea Lion existed on paper does not prove the intention. Or that Jodl claimed that "Oh, we were soooo getting ready to invade," during a time when Jodl was facing hundreds of allegations from the Western Allies. I just don't think either is credible proof that invasion was "imminent." Or even seriously considered. Asperon Thorn
It wasn't that hard overall. The whole campaign only lasted six weeks - Anyway Paris et all is nothing to do with this thread. The question is 'Did Hitler really have the intention to invade Britain or was he bluffing?' The document above states when preparations started to invade Britain and when they stopped. That to me is fairly strong evidence to sugest Hitler did 'intend' to invade Britain - Whether he could or not has no baring on the question in the poll.
Strange or what? I had just watched bomber command on freeview channel yesterday, then Antiques roadshow (from Bishop Auckland) came on, so put pc on and came on here and was catching up on this thread when I heard the words operation sealion, looked at the tv and they was a chap on there, with a german book called Sudkuste (Sothcoast) (u' s should look like two i' s joined together) as the book was flipped through it showed maps of the south coast with numbers marked on it, and pictures of all the south coast resorts in it. He also had a lot of other books of various towns and several maps, showing all roads, electric and water systems of England. He said these files had be liberated from Germany in 1944. the value was 3 to 4 k.
There were warehouses of those stockpiled in readiness to be issued to troops IIRC, it was kept constantly update until mid-1941 or so then put in store. Some of those maps are reproduced in the plates in Kenneth Macksey's WI-based book on Sealion. There's only one complete set of the frighteningly detailed command-level plans still in existence, in the IWM. The detail in IT is far over those maps in the "guide book". It contains literally thousands of really excellent photo recce pics taken by the Luftwaffe of Sussex and Kent.... It's a damn shame the IWM wouldn't make it available on line as a period photo resource! There's also only one complete set of the five volumes of plans of Fall Grun for a parallel diversionary invasion of Ireland in existence, in the museum in Cathal Brugha Barrack in Dublin.
Whilst I take your point Andy I do think his his intention was influenced by opportunity and the achieved circumstances presenting the realistic chances of successful outcome. Preparations had to be made, if Hitler wanted Britain to accept terms pressure would have to be applied and the very real threat of invasion would contribute to this, and if the opportunity presented an invasion might have to take place so preparations had to be made and politically he could not appear weak. I think his intention was not constant and it waned as the summer air assault faltered. I don't think the Army or Navy were very pro invasion , not with the hurried state of preparation - the Army wanted an assurance that they could be taken across the Channel and their supply routes secured and the navy was very up front in saying they could not do this in all but the most very favourable circumstances, circumstances which the Luftwaffe could not deliver.
From Against All Odds-The British Army of 1939-40 Since England, despite of her hopeless military situation, shows no signs of being ready to come to an understanding, I have decided to prepare a landing operation against England, and, if necessary, to carry it out. The aim of this operation will be to eliminate the English homeland as a base for the prosecution of the war against Germany and, if necessary, to occupy it completely.
You will forgive me, I hope, returning to this thread and offering for consideration an alternate thread title. I think instead of "Would Hitler have invaded Britain?" it could equally have been "Why would Hitler NOT have invaded Britain?" Spare a moment to look at the map below of what Europe looked like in 1942 as described on this website link. German Occupied Europe 1942 Map Imagine, if you can, what is was like in those dark days to know that those who had occupied Europe in this manner were poised at your very doors, ready and more than willing to subjugate what was left of Free Europe. That Hitler never attempted to invade was, and still is, the greatest enigma of it's time and still, I contend, a true miracle. One who lived through those times Ron
Hi Drew... Since England, despite of her hopeless military situation, shows no signs of being ready to come to an understanding, I have decided to prepare a landing operation against England, and, if necessary, to carry it out. The aim of this operation will be to eliminate the English homeland as a base for the prosecution of the war against Germany and, if necessary, to occupy it completely. IIRC I discussed this up the thread some time ago now; Fleming makes the point in his book that Hitler's phraseology in this directive is completely different and...wishy-washy?...compared with some of his others! Over the years, those highlighted caveats on AH's part have usually been interpreted to mean that Sealion was only to be a last resort IF all other ways of pressuring Britain failed, that his heart wasn't really in it as much it was in the various political gambits, Psi-war ops etc. of the eight weeks following Dunkirk...
As someone living on the south coast during the war, I can assure you that we were quite aware of the forces across the channel, and the bombing seemed to us a softening-up process before 'the great event'; we were convinced Hitler planned to invade, and determined to resist by whatever means possible. Ednamay
But Edna "did Hitler really intend to invade England"-I appreciate the preparation, but how firm was the intention ;when considered against such frightful odds. jainso31
