Wormhout Massacre/Battle Related Research Questions

Discussion in '1940' started by Drew5233, Dec 27, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Yes - 7km due west of 297663 which is pretty much the junction north of the bridge on the Cassel Road. Hope you have a bigger map!

    I don't suppose you can be more specific ref the farms location?

    I've just travelled along the road from the river into the town centre via the Google Camera and I couldn't see it. There's a picture of the farm in 'Massacre on the road to Dunkirk'


    A
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Andy - yes, my source is the regimental history (Cunliffe).

    Are the statements talking more about where our blokes were captured rather than where they started, and could that expain the discrepancy in the A Coy accounts (there being few/no B Coy accounts to contradict them)?

    Although it didn't say it, as the history postdates the investigation I'm tending to view it as a correction. It is likely it drew on other veterans' accounts that did not relate to the investigation, giving a less narrow view. As always, I may be wrong, but the next move is getting the Warwicks' and attached units' war diaries.
     
  3. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I don't suppose you can be more specific ref the farms location?

    I've just travelled along the road from the river into the town centre via the Google Camera and I couldn't see it. There's a picture of the farm in 'Massacre on the road to Dunkirk'


    A

    Sorry, Andy, perhaps I was a bit too flippant. I 'know' where the grid ref is but not what's at it. Haven't got to GE yet as I'm supposed to be doing dinner... It does sound a bit too far out to relate to the battle. Typos are not uncommon so it could be worth sticking a pin in variations like 277663 and see what's there.
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Andy - yes, my source is the regimental history (Cunliffe).

    Are the statements talking more about where our blokes were captured rather than where they started, and could that expain the discrepancy in the A Coy accounts (there being few/no B Coy accounts to contradict them)?

    Although it didn't say it, as the history postdates the investigation I'm tending to view it as a correction. It is likely it drew on other veterans' accounts that did not relate to the investigation, giving a less narrow view. As always, I may be wrong, but the next move is getting the Warwicks' and attached units' war diaries.

    The statemnets refer to where they were fighting and captured. Most appear to have surrendered in their positions ot near them due to being surrounded and or without ammunition.

    Ref 'B' Company it does seem strange there is no real mention of them.
     
  6. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Andy

    I've converted that map ref for you and e-mailed you the map. Comes up South of Wormhoudt on the now D916

    Cheers - Rob
     
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Sorry, Andy, perhaps I was a bit too flippant. I 'know' where the grid ref is but not what's at it. Haven't got to GE yet as I'm supposed to be doing dinner... It does sound a bit too far out to relate to the battle. Typos are not uncommon so it could be worth sticking a pin in variations like 277663 and see what's there.

    I'm assuming you would need an old BEF map to do that ?
     
  8. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Andy - You use the map cordinate translater that someone posted details of on this site last year. Once you get the hang of it, it's great.

    The "Coordinates Translator"

    Cheers - Rob
     
  9. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Andy there is so much more on Wormhoudt at Kew. The File you have could be a continuation of the previous one. There are eight more Files in the same class + a Treasury Solicitor File and one in WO311 regarding a visit to Wormhoudt by survivors.

    DEFE 38 Concerns the alleged involvment of General MONKE.

    Looking at a few more Files could probably set the record straight.

    Brian
     
    dbf likes this.
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Andy there is so much more on Wormhoudt at Kew. The File you have could be a continuation of the previous one. There are eight more Files in the same class + a Treasury Solicitor File and one in WO311 regarding a visit to Wormhoudt by survivors.

    DEFE 38 Concerns the alleged involvment of General MONKE.

    Looking at a few more Files could probably set the record straight.

    Brian


    Brian you know how much your help is always appreciated but I only have 4ish weeks before I go :lol:

    The annoying thing is I have a picture of the farm but the book doesn't say exactly where it is !
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    This site implies it's in Ledringhem which can't be correct as Ledringhem is too far West:

    Wormhoudt Massacre Site

    7/8-"The Fort Rose Farm"

    Situated at Ledringham, a village which was bravely defended from May 27th - 29th by the 5th Glosters, it was the headquarters of A Company of the 2nd Battalion of the Warwickshires on the morning of May 28th then at the end of the day it fell into the hands of the SS.

    The British soldiers were assembled in this farmyard before being marched across the fields to the barn at la Plaine au bois where most of them were murdered.
     
  12. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hope the weather improves soon Drew.

    The WO311 File would be worth a look.
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    This is what I'm looking for:

    Le Fort Rose Farm
    [​IMG]
     
  14. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The search is getting warmer, even if the weather ain't.

    Found a YouTube video of a tour round the meadow. On top of the memorial mound is a panorama that identifies the Fort Rose Farm (you can just make it out on the screenshots. Another view shows it in the opposite direction to Zeggers or Zegerscapelle as GoogleEarth has it.

    I have attached a very roughly-annotated GE shot that suggests that the big farm on Rue Roubruck is Fort Rose Farm. Against 'your' map, it seems to be the one labelled as HQ II Bn LSSAH's. That sort of makes sense if the POWs were present or presented there and the decision made to get rid of them. And it's only a short run across the fields to the cowshed. That would give it a grid ref of 287663 more or less...

    If you take Cunliffe as gospel, it's also on the correct arc for A Coy, though further forward than we might have thought. He also styates that the Warwicks' murdered were primarily A Coy with some D Coy which also fits in.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I think we've got it - try GE with streetview on. Typically, the Google car has taken a shot either side of the gate so there's no head on view but the glimpses through the trees are encouraging.
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Top Banana you've found it !

    The aerial shot below matches the picture above with the stables, Hay Barn and grass area in the court.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Phew!
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Indeed...I don't know who's happier me or Andrea who was proof reading the book and documents for further clues for me (She's a gooden but don't tell her I said that ;) ).
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Andrew,

    Do you have anything on those Chesires by any chance?
     
  20. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Oh hell! That's just reminded me that I've got a wife!!! S'pose I'd better go and see if she wants to do me a brew...

    Glad you've got something else sorted. I know what it's like to go somewhere, not find something then find out you were close but not quite there.

    Re: Cheshires - not for that period, I'm afraid. A chap at work has an extant granddad who was a mortarman with them in 5 Div later on, though.
     

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