Wormhout Massacre/Battle Related Research Questions

Discussion in '1940' started by Drew5233, Dec 27, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I wonder if anyone can help me out??

    I seem to have a difference of opinion regarding 'A' and 'B' Company, 2nd Bn. Warwicks locations on 28th May 1940 at Wormhout.

    One source says:

    'B' Company covered the western approaches to Wormhout with Route d' Esquelbecq (D17) on their right flank and Route de Rubrouck to the south on their left flank.

    'A' Company are in between 'B' and 'D' facing west with Route de Rubrouck on their right flank and Rue de Ledringhem on the left flank.

    The second source says exactly the opposite with 'A' Company being in 'B' Company's position and vice versa.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique MOD

    Have you looked at the regimental history?
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I don't have it although one source is written from the Regimental History, Battalion History and personal diaries from the men who survived and the other is a file from Kew which contains a map.

    So both are reliable sources and someone has just made a mistake somewhere along the line.
     
  4. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique MOD

    I think you've answered your own question then, Andy!
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    So would you say the map on the file from Kew wouldn't be wrong? It was put together in June 1947.

    I will concede the obvious choice to believe is the file assuming they didn't make mistakes back then?

    Regards
    Andy
     
  6. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique MOD

    I think any source, given a lapse of time, is open to error. Impossible to say for sure which one is right.
     
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Paul....I'll take pictures for both scenarios :)
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The history is quite specific:
    B Coy right covering Esquelbecq road i.e. W & NW approaches. ;
    A Coy centre covering W & SW round to Ledringhem road (5 Glosters in Ledringhem itself);
    D Coy left covering from Ledringhem road round to the Cassel road.
    C Coy garrisoned Esquelbecq but were detached to guard 48 Div HQ before the battle started.
    Bn HQ was initially in a large house where the Esquelbecq road came into the town square but moved to trenches in a park after an air raid.
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Andrew thats what the book says but the file has this map enclosed:
    [​IMG]

    Does the Regimental History mention anymore detail regarding the Bn. HQ? I'm struggling a bit with the 'Large House'. I have an idea due to the MT being in a field to the rear and the RAP next door but thats all I have (There appears to be a few large houses there now and wondered if it was Le Fort Rose Farm).

    I believe I've identified the park where it was moved too after the raid.
     
  10. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Nice map. The description in the book suggests it is the building to the right of the 'Q' in HQ. I assume that's the park it sitting in.

    Another bit of info hints that the map might have the correct location for Bn HQ with the park to the east of it: "The transport was concealed in the park of the house (to the east); the R.A.P. (under Captain A. Crook R.A.M.C.) was set up between the house and the transport."

    The history was published in 1956 and has drawn on the investigation (it references file WCIU/IDC/1650 if that tallies with anything on your copy) as it mentions the German side in more detail that you would expect, including a mention of Dietrich.

    Just noticed that the 2 Warwicks' CO was a Major P H W Hicks who went on to command 1 Airlanding Bde at Arnhem.
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Andrew,

    I believe the HQ moved south of the letter 'H' of HQ into what is still a park today looking at Google Earth. The track/road that leads south of the letter 'H' is called something or other 'Parc'. So that all ties in.

    My other source is 'Massacre on the Road to Dunkirk' and its that that used the Reg. History and conflicts with the map above regarding 'A' + 'B' Company positions. It states the MT was in the woods behind HQ and the RAP to the side of HQ.

    There is a mention of a Fort Rose Farm and I wonder if this was the Bn. HQ before it moved into the park after the raid??????

    Ref. Sepp D. I think I have the location where his car was shot up and the ditch he supposedly hide in all day.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Ref Company Positions at Wormhout I'm now fairly convinced after reading some of the statements of those captured from the Warwickshires and Royal Artillery the Map from the file compiled by Lt. Col. Scotland is reasonably accurate.
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Question Two:

    Does anyone know the exact location of the Chesires involved in the defence at Wormhoult?

    I've identified they were No.s 7 and 9 Platoons from 'D' Company, 4th Chesires. I suspect one of the Platoons (The one I'm interested in) was West of Wormhout probably near the D17 and suspect these along with members of 'A' Company shot up Sepp Dietrich's car.

    Cheers for any help
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Question Three:

    Does anyone Fort Rose Farm is? The location is given in a grid ref which is 227 663 found in a Wormhout file from Kew.
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Question Four:

    What is Rottenfuehrer cr Sturmmaenner?
     
  16. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Question Three:

    Does anyone Fort Rose Farm is? The location is given in a grid ref which is 227 663 found in a Wormhout file from Kew.

    Yes - 7km due west of 297663 which is pretty much the junction north of the bridge on the Cassel Road. Hope you have a bigger map!
     
  17. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Ref Company Positions at Wormhout I'm now fairly convinced after reading some of the statements of those captured from the Warwickshires and Royal Artillery the Map from the file compiled by Lt. Col. Scotland is reasonably accurate.

    Might be fairer to say that Lt Col Scotland accurately compiled a map from the statements. Not saying he's wrong but it's not strictly independent data. That said, you would expect any Gunners' grid refs to be pretty accurate (even if they couldn't hit them).

    I'll have another look at the Warwicks but I'm sure I got the impression that most of their positions were away from the town.
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Yes - 7km due west of 297663 which is pretty much the junction north of the bridge on the Cassel Road. Hope you have a bigger map!


    Cheers Andrew,

    I thought (Looking at the map in a earlier post) that would be a wrong Grid Ref.

    I assume you mean the D916 ? When you sat Bridge do you mean the one across the river south of Wormhout?

    I so that ties in with the area where members of 'D' Company, Warwicks were captured and Gunner Parry was marched too after his swim to Dunkirk went wrong.
     
  19. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Re: Q4 - they are SS ranks but that seems a bit too easy - is the 'cr' the issue?
     
  20. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I assume you mean the D916 ? When you sat Bridge do you mean the one across the river south of Wormhout?

    Yep.

    I'm now kicking myself because I saw something about Esquelbecq the other day, recognised it but didn't make the connection; getting old..
     

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