World War 2 cock ups ??

Discussion in 'General' started by welshy, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. welshy

    welshy Shakey Member

    Hi my dad never spoke much about his time in ww2 & being a fepow for 3 1/2 years, he passed when i was only 16 back in 1977 but i always remember him slagging off churchill and one of the generals either mountbatten or montgomery he was a tank driver, l. cpl in the 56th Haa when captured at singapore. He was very annoyed at churchill and general ?? i understand theres always cock ups in war time i guess but did he have good reason for his anger, wish id asked him more now but at 16 , only girls on my mind hehe .....
     
  2. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

  3. welshy

    welshy Shakey Member

    yes a question was he rite to be angry and if so why ?? thanks for replying btw
     
  4. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    No shortage of material for this thread. It could go on for years.

    Hong Kong
    Singapore
    Iwo Jima
    Dieppe
    Antwerp

    ........add yours to the list
     
  5. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    There was no single cock-up for each of those debacles - they all resulted from a confluence of events, some of which were due to bad leadership/decisions at the local level but others were down to external factors that were outside anyone's control.

    It's easy to say what should have been done after the event. Sometimes, it's not so easy to predict how things will pan out when you're on the spot and have to make the decision without the benefit of hindsight.
     
  6. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    ........add yours to the list

    Slapton Sands was what I thought of when I saw the subject of the thread.
     
  7. welshy

    welshy Shakey Member

    i hear you there buffnut, good point, dont think my dad enjoyed the embarrasing nature of which the great british army gave up with such ease to the japs and then to be treated in such an unhumane nature upset his inner soul, dont think he ever recovered from that, dont think his body ever did either , leukaemia being the reason for his death in 1977
     
  8. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Welshy:

    Oh, dear, you have opened a drum full of worms.

    Just sticking to Singapore, you have a lot of reading to do if you want to learn more about your dad's experience and what it was all about. The best single book about the disaster is probably Brian P. Farrell, The Defence and Fall of Singapore. Also of great value are Alan Warren, Britain's Greatest Defeat: Singapore 1942 and Karl Hack and Kevin Blackburn, Did Singapore Have to Fall? All three of these are recent books and summarize decades of scholarship. The foundations can be found in the British official histories (Brigadier Woodburn-Kirby for the army and Stephen Roskill for the navy), plus the Australian official history (Lionel Wigmore) and the combined Indian-Pakistani official history (can't remember the authors right now, sorry). There are many other good books, both old and new, and quite a few that are not so good. Percival and Gordon Bennett (the Australian commander) both wrote apologia, neither of which is convincing. As your father was a gunner, I should also look at Martin Farndale's official Royal Artillery volume, The Far East Theatre, 1939-1946.

    VERY briefly, Singapore was a truly comprehensive failure from top to bottom. Percival was one of the worst field commanders in British history and no excuses can be made for him, but he was by no means solely to blame. The whole Singapore strategy was based on wishful thinking to begin with, and that wishful thinking went as far back as 1919. When it came to the fighting, the troops had to pay the bills of an Empire that had long exceeded its credit balance. Yet while some troops fought well and some officers led well, too many did not; I am sure many regiments would like to expunge the Malayan chapter from their histories. Both at the time and after, British, Australians and Indians have all pointed fingers at one another, but in truth Singapore was a combined disaster in which few men of any country distinguished themselves; there was disgrace enough to go around.

    It should be pointed out, too, that the Japanese were at their very best in Malaya. They were led by their greatest general of modern times, Yamashita, who was also the only general they had who did not believe in throwing away the lives of his men.
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Welshy
    he was Tank driver in the HAA ...?... no wonder he was upset as he might have been on his own ... but no matter how good - or otherwise a General's plans are - the enemy usually has something to say about it - we called it the "fog of war "
    One of the main factors at Singapore was the decision made in 1931 when the coastal guns were sited to offset a naval landing - the Japanese came via the land .....OOPS !
    Cheers
     
  10. red devil

    red devil Senior Member

    Churchill is also alleged to have returned 2000 White Russians across the border from Austria (I believe) to the Red Army waiting over the border. These 2000 were later shot.

    Coventry was I suppose a form of cock up as well. Churchill know they were coming and when, but decided to keep his means secret by allowing the attack to get through.
     
  11. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Coventry was I suppose a form of cock up as well. Churchill know they were coming and when, but decided to keep his means secret by allowing the attack to get through.

    What is the source for that?
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Red Devil
    No use blaming Churchill as the decision to return all Russian deserters was made at Yalta when FDR was sick - Churchill too weak in the trio - and no one challenged the fact that both British and Americans had no prisoners in Russia to "swap" and so Stalin's "suggestion " went through on the nod.....

    In Austria in late '45- early '46 all three Divisions there- 6th AD - 78thID and 46thID were occupied in rounding up way more than 2000 Russians for Stalins men

    My own squadron of 16/5th Lancers was involved at Judenberg near Knittelfeld as was the whole of the 26th AB of 6th AD in rounding many hundreds and loading them onto Bedford three tonners to hand over - we didn't see too many three tonners come back - BUT there is a massive gravesite about fives miles North of Judenberg - which was the limit of the Russian sector at that time.

    The 46th Div also were involved in handing over a whole Division of Cossacks - men - women and children near Graz ...... no doubt 78th Div did the same over at Spitaal area ....

    Cheers
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Just recalled a big argument with PeterG on the subject of handing over the Russians from Austria - which is still interesting as I was there - he wasn't !

    See -"Yalta Aftermath " in the BBC series below
    Chers
     
  14. welshy

    welshy Shakey Member

    hi tom, yes looks like my dad started off driving tanks etc then was moved to 56HAA REGIMENT for singapore..............heres one of his records, hope i read it correctly lol
    WR7 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
     
  15. welshy

    welshy Shakey Member

    hi tth and thanks.............i will truly be reading the books you mentioned, as i want to and need to know all angles of my fathers war history, thanks for yor knowledge and reply, greatly appreciated !!
     
  16. red devil

    red devil Senior Member

    What is the source for that?

    I read it in more than one source, and was also on a documentary about the sneaky beaky side of WW2.

    The Germans used a radio beam system which they were able to control one from France and one from Germany, the beams crossed over the target. We were able to detect them when switched on so knew that Coventry was the target that particular night. That was, as far as I can recall, not the 'source' but the confirmation.

    I have known about this for quite a while. My wife and I went to Coventry and looked around and found a medieval street not affected by the fire storm, and also (in the old cathedral I think) is mention of the fact 'we knew' in advance.
     
  17. red devil

    red devil Senior Member

    Tom, you say no use blaming Churchill I knew the decision was made at Yalta because Stalin asked Churchill to, send them back over. White Russians who were doomed at that conference.
     
  18. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    hi tth and thanks.............i will truly be reading the books you mentioned, as i want to and need to know all angles of my fathers war history, thanks for yor knowledge and reply, greatly appreciated !!

    Welshy:

    The best single documentary source for what your father's outfit actually did is likely to be the regimental war diary. These diaries are held by the PRO at Kew. If you cannot get there easily, a number of members of this forum will copy them for you. Contact Drew 5233 here via personal message and he will give you his rates.

    I should tell you, though, that many war diaries for Malaya Command were lost in whole or in part at the time of the surrender. Some were mugged up later in the prison camps, but a great deal of information was lost one way or another. Your first step is to find out whether a diary for 56th HAA still exists, and if it covers the relevant dates. There are also a number of websites about the Malayan campaign and Far Eastern POWs, and you may find more information and help there.
     
  19. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Red Devil-
    As you well know - that decision was taken - "On the nod' as Churchill - nearly bankrupt had little to say in any of the decisions made at that Yalta conference - just another sneaky one by Stalin - which we were stuck with - without knowing the true nature of his "suggestion " - we learned the true nature of this in 1976 when the conference decisions were promulgated by the BBc - we were led to believe that they were jewish refugees trying to get to Israel....
    Cheers
     

Share This Page