World War 1 - Medal Record - TFSmith

I am currently researching my Great Uncles WW2 experiences and have a thread with his MSR attached and everyone on the forum has been extremely helpful. He was a LT with the RAOC then a Captain with the REME/IEME (MEF). I know I’m probably chancing my arm a bit asking a WW1 question on a WW2 forum but I am hoping somebody might be able to help me with my query.
[FONT=&quot]I have attached my Great Uncle World War 1 medal record (the only official document I have been able to get). He enlisted in 1914 with the 10th Batt (Sth Belfast) Royal Irish Rifles and was attached to the 36thUlster Division. Specifically he was involved in taken the German position at [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Schwaben Redoubt near Thiepval on that famous heroic day in July 1916. He re-enlisted in November 1916 into the Royal Engineers and its here where I have hit a brick wall. On his medal records attached, are there any clues as to what division he was in with the RE’s?. I Personally I just have no idea where to start. Obviously I have tried unsuccessfully like many others to obtain his WW1 records.[/FONT]

 

I don't think that there are any clues to units within corps on the medal cards. My Grandfather's only shows "A.S.C" and we only know that he was 123 I.C.F.A. because it is shown on his post-war certificate of employment which the family had retained.

There are no clues whatsoever on the medal card and nothing else in the archives has survived.

 

Stephen

I've never researched any Royal Engineers but the medal rolls held at Kew might yield a clue. For a soldier of the Infantry the medal roll would show which Battalions he served with. There are two medal rolls for your Great Uncle, one for the 1915 star and the other for the British and Victory medals. Hopefully a medal roll for the Royal Engineers may be similar to that of an Infantry regiment.

I've posted a comparison between the Medal Index Card and the Medal Roll as an example. The MIC gives no clue to Robert's service but the medal roll clearly places him with 6/South Lancs and from that I know he served solely in Mesopotamia

Good luck.

 

Stephen

Just a thought ..... when you say that you have "tried unsuccessfully" to obtain your Great Uncle's WW1 Service Records, was this through MOD in Glasgow?
With the details shown on your Great Uncle's WW1 Medal Card you might be lucky finding more information about him from a personal file if it survived: this might still possibly be held by the Historical Disclosurers Section at the MOD in Glasgow.

I followed this route myself in connection with a WW1 RAMC Officer who is not related to my family. Had no luck through many RAMC enquiries, but received a positive response from Historical Disclosures and was supplied with copies of original documents held covering service in 1910, the Great War 1914-1918 and beyond up until this Officer's death in 1936.

I may just have been lucky, but wish you well with your searches.

Lindsay

 

For the benefit of the general forum.....the Soldiers Records from the Great War were stored at Chancery Lane in 1940 - then a branch or perhaps the main PRO in those days and were visted by Adolf Hitler and since that night are known as the burnt records...in that you either find a record, you don't or it is smoke/water/fire damaged.......offcecrs records from the Great War were stored elsewhere which is why they can be viewed today at Kew......would the RE Museum at Chatham be able to help...but I suspect like many organisations would need a unit......

 

You could also try the Great War Forum or the Western Front Association Forum.....or would the Somme Heritage Centre in Newtownards be a useful place to ask something?????

 

You could also try the Great War Forum...

Which is just were I've made a quick enquiry if the medal rolls for the Engineers detail the units attached to. Unfortunately, unlike the Infantry Regiments they don't.

Sorry.

 

HI all

as an officer his records would still be around-
Researching a soldier: How to research an officer of the British Army 1914-1918
and here is a bit on the RE's-
The Royal Engineers of 1914-1918

if I get the chance I will look for his records later

regards

Robert

Oops sorry , he is not an officer, then I presume you have looked through Ancestry?
If he is not there and he had no further service after 1920, then unfortunately his records have not survived. - Researching a soldier: How to research a soldier of the "other ranks" 1914-1918: army service records of 1914-1918
The WR prefix means something, but I cant find it yet. I will keep searching

 

Thanks everyone this is great information. Just for clarification, he was an officer in WW2 Im not sure of his RANK at the end of WW1. I contacted the MoD in Glasgow and they were dismissive that I could get his records (said without checking of course). Its only last week that I realised that I may have contacted the wrong place as I didnt realise there was more than one MODs in Glasgow. I will follow that route again and see what comes up.

 

Stephen

The WR number indicates he served with a Waterways/Railway unit of the RE. Unfortunately it is not possible to say which particular unit.

Here is a thread from the GWF that's well worth taking a look at:

WR- prefix Royal Engineers service number - Great War Forum

 

Stephen

The WR number indicates he served with a Waterways/Railway unit of the RE. Unfortunately it is not possible to say which particular unit.

Here is a thread from the GWF that's well worth taking a look at:

WR- prefix Royal Engineers service number - Great War Forum


My next question was answered in the information within the link. Thanks a million as this is another area I can research. This makes so much sense because after WWI (not immediately) he worked as a Civil Engineer in Georgetown British Guiana on the canal waterway network.

 

The Medal Index Card does provide some useful info that you haven't mentioned (and therefore I wonder if you realise it).
It looks as if his training was with the RIR (red) and then he went Overseas as a member of the Royal Engineers.
The colour code is used to indicate how medals were to be impressed, so that in your instance, he would receive the 1914-1915 Star ('15 Star) to signify that he was in a Theatre of War after 22nd November 1914 as a member of the RE. Had he been in a ToW before 22nd November 1914 he would have been entitled to the 1914 Star, with Clasp (and his medal ribbon would have had a small rosette pinned on it). This was important as only those with the clasp and rose would be eligible for membership of the Old Comtemptibles Association.
His Victory and British War medals would be impressed with his rank, Regimental Number and unit as shown in blue.
His change of unit is also in blue, indicating that it occurred no earlier than 1916... which you know is correct!!
You'll sometimes see little asterisk or other symbols, which link a specific rank/unit etc to a specific medal.
Obviously the Medal Rolls will contain his unit details, as has been shown.
If he served until after 1920 or 1922, then his records will still be retained by the MoD and need to be requested as if a WW2 Service Record.
Hope this helps a little with those WW1 MIC's (although of course NO ONE here needs to know)!!
Also, most MM winners cards do not appear in Ancestry, but a complete record is on the National Archive database and costs £2 to download. So, if you can't find anyone in Anc*stry, either he never served abroad and was not entitled to any Territorial Effeciency etc medal, or he might be a MM winner, and therefore worth double checking with the NA database.... now, what does that meerkat say????

 

Thanks Kevin, my experience in researching the finer details has taught me elimination of information is as powerful as learning new information. Your never left wondering. Your note is a perfect example of this

 

Stephen

Take a look at post #4

Sapper TF Smith - Great War Forum

I was taking a look at the Service Numbers that are close to his own 'WR' number last night as well and I think he is right and although the method is not exactly scientific it is something I have used before with success. Many more posts on the Railway Operating Division here...

railway operating division service numbers - Google Search