Why The Patches?

Discussion in 'General' started by jimbotosome, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    In WWII, once the war started the Germans removed their division patches from their sleaves so that the enemy would not know who was in the area to estimate strength. Why did the Allies leave them on?
     
  2. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    </div><div class='quotemain'>Why did the Allies leave them on? [/b]

    That was a decsion made at the highest level and i do not think anyone here has an answer to the question. That is not to say that it is not a good question.
     
  3. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I was not aware that the Germans wore divisional patches and I have never seen them in a photograph.

    The British army introduced them during WWI, so I suppose the question is not why leave them on, but why were they useful in the forst place?
     
  4. GarandGuy

    GarandGuy Member

    The Germans didn't often use shoulder patches, aside from the foreign conscripts who often did have a shoulder patch. Foreign SS soldiers from various units also had shoulder patches. Many SS and panzer divisions did however use cuff titles which were about the same thing. The 1st SS LAH used a cuff band that read 'Adolf Hitler', the 2nd SS 'Das Reich', the 12th 'Hitler Jugend', the 17th SS 'Gotz von Berlichingen', and so on. These would have easily identified a unit fighting as would have the SS Divisional insignia placed prominently on nearly all armoured vehicles. The Allies would censor divisional patches in photographs though I'm not sure the Germans did.
     
  5. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (GarandGuy @ Nov 8 2005, 08:57 PM) [post=41283]The Germans didn't often use shoulder patches, aside from the foreign conscripts who often did have a shoulder patch. Foreign SS soldiers from various units also had shoulder patches. Many SS and panzer divisions did however use cuff titles which were about the same thing. The 1st SS LAH used a cuff band that read 'Adolf Hitler', the 2nd SS 'Das Reich', the 12th 'Hitler Jugend', the 17th SS 'Gotz von Berlichingen', and so on. These would have easily identified a unit fighting as would have the SS Divisional insignia placed prominently on nearly all armoured vehicles. The Allies would censor divisional patches in photographs though I'm not sure the Germans did.
    [/b]

    View attachment 1223 View attachment 1220 View attachment 1221 View attachment 1222
     
  6. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    But the question still is, what were the advantages of troops wearing tactical markings as uniform patches?

    They still do it by the way. Anyone watching the BBC series about the Household Cavalry will have seen their reconnaisance tank units wearing the patch of Sapper's old division, 3rd Infantry, on their combat jackets.
     
  7. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (angie999 @ Nov 8 2005, 10:39 PM) [post=41297]But the question still is, what were the advantages of troops wearing tactical markings as uniform patches?

    They still do it by the way. Anyone watching the BBC series about the Household Cavalry will have seen their reconnaisance tank units wearing the patch of Sapper's old division, 3rd Infantry, on their combat jackets.
    [/b]

    Not much here from the Aussie site.

    During WW1, Units of the 1st AIF were issued with colour patches to identify their type of Unit within the Corps, Division, Brigade and Regimental structures.

    In 1939 the Australian Army was back at war. It was decided that all Units of the 2nd AIF were to wear identical colour patches to corresponding numbered units of the 1st AIF, but with some form of distinguishing mark to avoid confusion with CMF Units which had also inherited the colour patches of former AIF Units. The solution to this problem was to place the colour patch on a background of battleship grey cloth, which appeared as a 1/4 inch wide border on all sides of the colour patch.
     
  8. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    In peace time I understand why they wear them. It helps in evaluating the performance of soldiers in the training were groups are intermixed. The Germans did this in peace time too. But they pulled them off when they went to war (for the most part) so the groups could not be identified and be a source of intelligence.

    Today it is probably more beneficial to leave the patches on because with the ease of mobility of troops and equipment the cohesiveness of units and the complexity of the intelligence gathering, the identification of troops is battle is far less of an issue. In the US, the news media is extreme liberal to the point of being rabid militants, and hates the military more than the enemy. They are more than happy to show the position and numbers of each division, publish troop strength and even have discussions of where major vulnerabilities of these groups exist. Sometimes they put detailed maps and computer animations together to better illustrate these vulnerabilities. I think CNN was created for this very reason. They even hire ex-generals to come up with worst case scenarios as though the American public has need to know this detail and the enemy would not be interested in the best way to defeat these forces. Not treason people, but rather the American citizen's right to know.

    But in WWII, the position of divisions could be of important use to recon patrols that are determining who is in the area and where, because it reveals not only where troops are present but what positions they have abandoned and might be vulnerable.

    Could it have been as simple as "they simply didn't think of it"?
     
  9. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The Germans were aware of the units serving in Normandy, and documents were issued with their names, the one division they did not have, was ours, Third Div. I have seen the documents. Though a very long time ago.
    Sapper
     
  10. GarandGuy

    GarandGuy Member

    The Germans did not use shoulder patches before the war or during the war. German soldiers did not have shoulder patches to remove before going into battle which makes the question asked in this thread irrevalent. However as I stated before, SS Divisions wore cuff titles like the ones I described and painted divisional insignia on armoured vehicles, kubelwagons, and the like. The reason British and American soldier's used patches was for identification of units in the heat of battle and to build esprit de corps. A soldier wearing the patch of the American 1st Infantry Division would feel pride in knowing he serves in the oldest standing division in the U.S. Army, and a soldier of the 82nd or 101st Airborne would be proud to show everyone he is an elite Airborne soldier. The same reason SS troops were cuff titles. To inspire pride among the soldiers and to build unit cohesion. The only Wehrmacht forces I know of that wore shoulder patches at any time were the foreign conscripts. The only SS units with shoulder patches were foreign SS such as the French SS with a tricolor shoulder patch and the Britische Freikorps (Captured British soldiers who enlisted in the SS) with a Union Jack shoulder patch.
     
  11. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    (sapper @ Nov 8 2005, 04:50 PM) [post=41332]The Germans were aware of the units serving in Normandy, and documents were issued with their names, the one division they did not have, was ours, Third Div. I have seen the documents. Though a very long time ago.
    Sapper
    [/b]
    Well, sapper, even if they know what is in Normandy, they wouldn't know who was where. For instance if you engineers were seen in an area preparing for an assault or a river crossing, by seeing your patches they could determine what you were and get a good idea of what was coming. By seeing the division patch, they could gauge what they would be up against to. Wouldn't you agree with that?
     
  12. GarandGuy

    GarandGuy Member

    In war you almost always know what you're up against. That's what military intelligence and reconnaisance patrols are for. US forces routinely probed behind enemy lines at night to capture prisoners and find out what units they were up against. When I was at Khe Sanh with B/1 9th Marines in '67, intelligence reports and prisoner snatches told us we were facing the 351st NVA Division, which was supposed to be the elite of their army. The intelligence proved to be right. We were also facing several other divisions that I don't remember....all of them were very tough fighters. Anyway, getting off track, bottom line is the intelligence that can be gathered from a shoulder patch is little if any that you don't already have.
     
  13. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    GarandGuy,

    Couldn't the captured enemy just give you disinformation if you relied upon their testamony?
     
  14. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Never take the Germans for fools...They knew damn well who was there. After one of our barrages they were in no fit state to pass on disinformation. They, my friend, were just bloody glad to be out of it.

    We did not always wear our insignia, often we would go into an assault wearing our denims. no insignia! Why wear denims? light, easy to run under fire, did not get clogged with mud and dirt like the Khaki Serge.

    rather like tin hats, try running across an observed open space with a tin hat, time you reach cover it would be over you face trying to break your nose. OK for keeping the rain off!

    very often we had denims. thus no insignia, But what we did have, was the appearance of a bunch of bloody pirates. Denims, rifles, stens, and Brens, with grenades, bandoliers and lack of a haircut....

    The Germans knew who and where....They had enough time to set it all up. Though although they knew we were sappers they did not know what unit as that was coded. mine was a white 49 ona blue background
    Sapper

    or this
     
  15. GarandGuy

    GarandGuy Member

    Like sapper said, a captured soldier is usually stunned and in no shape to tell lies. Occaisonally in Vietnam we would capture VC or NVA who came to our lines specifically to pass on false intelligence, but when you capture an enemy in battle he is apt to tell the truth. We also had a technique that would get whatever you wanted out of a POW. We would pop the hood on a jeep, connect jumper cables from the batteries to the guy's balls and rev the motor. In a few minutes he'd tell you anything to get you to stop. Not something I'm particularly proud of, but that was war, and the technique worked. Impressive array of awards sapper. My old dress uniform pales in comparison to that!
     
  16. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Sapper, what kept them from targeting you engineers? Those are the ones I would go after. They can do the most damage by enabling the rest of the army. Seems like if you could shoot the engineers you could halt the whole group in certain environments. Engineers are not just doughboys that can be replaced easily. Am I wrong here?
     
  17. GarandGuy

    GarandGuy Member

    Shooting up a unit of engineers wouldn't stop an entire movement as the primary function of engineers is to clear minefields, build bridges, remove obstacles, etc. Regular infantry and armor could break through a fortified position, albeit slower without the engineers. One of the few instances I can think of where engineers were vital to keeping a movement going was at Remagen. Without the engineers the Bridge at Remagen would've collapsed slowing the entire advance across the Rhine.
     
  18. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Are you saying there is a higher priority soldier to shoot that would do a better job at inhibiting a unit than killing its engineers?
     
  19. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    (GarandGuy @ Nov 10 2005, 04:46 AM) [post=41398] Without the engineers the Bridge at Remagen would've collapsed slowing the entire advance across the Rhine.
    [/b]

    It did collapse. The important thing is that a bridgehead was established and the engineers were able to build a replacement.
     
  20. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Jimbo..They did go after the sappers, but the RE field Companies had a different role to the Us army. they would be involved in leading the assaults, as well as the expected duties of the RE; like bridging. mine clearing. etc Blowing up things!

    The sword beach assault was led by the RE, and with the Eighth infantry brigade. nearly always led off! It was "expected"

    The RE did suffer casualties that could not be afforded. the trouble being; every Sapper was a artisan...craftsman, or highly skilled in their own right. In that Corps you could find everything from a goldsmith to a plumber.

    In a good many cases, the sappers would romp off forward. Our Colonel "Tiger Urquehart" had a continuous personal war with the Enemy. sometimes way ahead of the leading infantry.

    In one case where the company were well ahead, and had just captured a bridge and prevented the enemy from igniting the explosive fuses. The sappers drove the enmy off the bridge with sten fire, then ran up and disconnected the explosive relays while under severe fire. We were ordered to stop, and let the infantry and the armour deal.

    That would never do for "Tiger" His whole instinct was to follow the Company Motto "Bash On" Something he always adhered to....

    What we Veterans find, is that when you start talking about your exploits. Civilians look at you as though you are spinning a tale.. So most clam up.

    To illustrate the sappers role, the RE had the highest number of awards in the whole division.
    Sapper

    I Forgopt! The number of awards was 43...That does not include the award that I had earned but never got.
    Sapper
     

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