Why Is Stalingrad So Important?

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by ghvalj, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. L J

    L J Senior Member

    LJ, whilst I have no doubt that your fiigures are correct, the men manning these tanks would not have been the same quality as those who launched themselves upon the Soviet Union in 1941. I would also put forward the fact that the Luftwaffe produced more aircraft in 1944 than in any other of the war, yet a lack of fuel and trained pilots meant that the production was for naught. I'm not directly comparing the luftwaffe of 1944 with the panzerwaffe of 1943 but I am saying that numbers produced do not necessarily mean a better fighting force
    Off-course:I do not deny this :there was for the Luftwaffe a disastrous lack of trained pilots and as result a lot of accidents and Combat Losses .More tanks and more aircraft do not mean a better fighting force (in the Ardennes a lot of tank crews were totally inexperient ). But you will agree that it's very difficult to mesure the increased tank numbers against the diminishing quality of the crews. Should one substract let's say 10 % or 20 % from an 25 % increased tank strenght ?
     
  2. L J

    L J Senior Member

    It would be interesting as well if you could provide figures for the date after Zitadelle was wrapped up.

    Also very interesting would be figures for operational tanks after the Soviet counterofensives after Zitadelle: Ops. Bagration and Rumyantsev. Surely you remember these: the operations that on the Northern shoulder of the Kursk Salient stove in 9th Armee, and on the South damaged Army Group south and 2 months later leading to the liberation of Kiev.
    I have the following figures from the Dupuy Institute: 31 -05 -44:Tanks :First:eek:perational,second :in repair,third :assigned or en route . AG SU : 186, 87, 138 AG NU: 830 133 229 AG M :85 14 37 AG N :91 ,53 , 30 Total:1192 287 434 Sturmgeschutze: SU :194 62 278 NU :480 70 185 M:404 76 68 N: 241 53 69 Total :1319 261 680 Interesting is that there were more SG than tanks ,maybe own to an army in defensive . 15 -09-44 :Tanks :AG S : 51 22 43 AG A:179 133 132 AG M 398 239 76 AG N:595 153 27 Total: 1223 547 278 SG AG S:62 23 95 A:198 181 148 M :544 160 92 N:41O 133 149 Total:1214 497 384 The figures were given by Rich as result of a discussion about the distribution of the tanks and SG immediately before Bagration . Cheers
     
  3. L J

    L J Senior Member

    It seems that the smileys have became independent :D
     
  4. L J

    L J Senior Member

    Additional information from Hitler's War( by H. Magenheimer ):In february 1944 there were 3O50 tanks and SPG on the eastern front,about half of which were undergoing repairs ,in the West there were only 1233 such vehicles ,in Italy 481 in combat or in repair,in the Reich 1230 undergoing repairs .
     
  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I have the following figures from the Dupuy Institute: 31 -05 -44:Tanks :First:eek:perational,second :in repair,third :assigned or en route . AG SU : 186, 87, 138 AG NU: 830 133 229 AG M :85 14 37 AG N :91 ,53 , 30 Total:1192 287 434 Sturmgeschutze: SU :194 62 278 NU :480 70 185 M:404 76 68 N: 241 53 69 Total :1319 261 680 Interesting is that there were more SG than tanks ,maybe own to an army in defensive . 15 -09-44 :Tanks :AG S : 51 22 43 AG A:179 133 132 AG M 398 239 76 AG N:595 153 27 Total: 1223 547 278 SG AG S:62 23 95 A:198 181 148 M :544 160 92 N:41O 133 149 Total:1214 497 384 The figures were given by Rich as result of a discussion about the distribution of the tanks and SG immediately before Bagration . Cheers

    Damn! It will be easier when I can put this into a tabular shape, maybe later tonight I'll give it a go. :)

    The point I'm trying to reach is that outright losses were your 250 (I don't agree but I have my books packed away for a house move) but there were quite a number of recovered vehicles that were sent to depot. With the two counter-attack operations I mentioned above, one of the consequences was that not only combat more losses had been incurred, but the field parks were lost as well as the Soviet advance was extensive. So the final total number of post-Zitadelle losses was indeed rather bigger than your nominal "250". It is this larger figure that I'm after.

    I used to lurk in the Dupuy forum, but traffic used to be so slow that I even forgot where that is!
     
  6. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    LJ, well done on bringing this thread back and you are making some good points! I would agree with your point about numbers and Tank Crews! Keep it up!
     
  7. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    [FONT=&quot]See? Almost perfect :)


    ..........operational.-.in repair.-.assigned or en route [/FONT]

    31-05-44:
    Tanks:
    AG SU:...........186.........87.........138
    AG NU:...........830........133.........229
    AG M:.............85.........14..........37
    AG N:.............91.........53..........30
    Total:..........1192........287.........434
    Sturmgeschutze:
    AG SU:...........194.........62.........278
    AG NU:...........480.........70.........185
    AG M:............404.........76..........68
    AG N:............241.........53..........69
    Total:..........1319........261.........680

    15-09-44:
    Tanks:
    AG S:.............51.........22..........43
    AG A:............179........133.........132
    AG M:............398........239..........76
    AG N:............595........153..........27
    Total:..........1223........547.........278
    StuG:
    AG S:.............62.........23..........95
    AG A:............198........181.........148
    AG M:............544........160..........92
    AG N:............410........133.........149
    Total:..........1214........497.........384

    For the non-initiated: :)
    AG: Army Group
    SU: South Ukraine
    NU: North Ukraine
    [FONT=&quot]M: Mitte (Centre)
    N: North
    S: South
    A: Army Group 'A'

    For the prevalence of StuGs, off the cuff we have to remember the large number of StuGs in organic batallions in PzGrn divisions, independent StuG brigades and battalions, organic StuG batteries in several types of divisiobal AT battalions, and also the replacement of tanks by StuGs in proper Pz Divs.

    It would be interesting to compare these data with the current operations, but that will be another thread, right? :)
    [/FONT]
     
  8. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Here are couple of tables for you Za but I doubt that they would help you to find out actual losses of German armor during the Operation Zitadelle.

    Note:"Specialty" tanks refers to all command and flamethrowing tanks; "Obsolete" tanks includes all Pzkw Us, Ills, and IVs that were equipped with the L24 gun; "Modern" tanks consist of all late-model Pzkw IVs, Panthers, and Tigers; and "Assault Guns" incorporates all StG Ills, StuHs, and StuPz FVs.
     

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  9. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    8. Armee was reformed 22 August 1943 from Armeeabteilung Kempf

    Combat Strength Report: Eighth Army,
    24-25 August

    XLVIII Panzer Corps

    7th Panzer Division (reduced to Kampfgruppe)
    Unit strength: 11,528
    Combat strength: 4,268
    Panzers (operational): 17
    Panzers (in repair): 44
    Light Field Artillery: 8
    Heavy Field Artillery: 3
    88mm Flak: 5
    Medium Antitank guns: 14
    Heavy Antitank guns: 21

    Grossdeutschland Panzergrenadier Division
    Not reported

    Totenkopf SS Panzergrenadier Division
    Unit strength: 8,976
    Combat strength: 4,805
    Panzers (operational): 31
    Panzers (in repair): 124
    Light Field Artillery: 22
    Heavy Field Artillery: 14
    100mm Cannon: 4
    20mm Flak: 38
    37mm Flak: 8
    88mm Flak: 12
    Medium antitank guns: 30
    Heavy antitank guns: 25

    III Panzer Corps

    223rd Infantry Division
    Unit strength: 7,787
    Combat strength: 4,717
    Light Field Artillery: 31
    Heavy Field Artillery: 6
    Medium antitank guns: 16
    Heavy antitank guns: 24

    Wiking SS Panzergrenadier Division
    Unit strength: 8,611
    Combat strength: 3,761
    Panzers (operational): 27
    Panzers (in repair): 20
    Assault guns (operational): 4
    Assault guns (in repair): 0
    Light Field Artillery: 23
    Heavy Field Artillery: 8
    100mm Cannon: 4
    20mm Flak: 25
    37mm Flak: 3
    88mm Flak: 7
    Medium antitank guns: 30
    Heavy antitank guns: 17

    Tiger Battalion 503
    Unit strength: 1,092
    Combat strength: 355
    Panzers (operational): 25
    Panzers (in repair): 17
    20mm Flak: 6

    XI Corps

    198th Infantry Division (reduced to Kampfgruppe)
    Unit strength: 10,794
    Combat strength: 3,202
    Light Field Artillery: 17
    Heavy Field Artillery: 3
    Medium antitank guns: 8
    Heavy antitank guns: 13
    106th Infantry Division
    Unit strength: 10,238
    Combat strength: 3,867
    Light Field Artillery: 21
    Heavy Field Artillery: 6
    20mm Flak: 12
    Medium antitank guns: 10
    Heavy antitank guns: 17

    320th Infantry Division
    Unit strength: 9,945
    Combat strength: 2,430
    Light Field Artillery: 24
    Heavy Field Artillery: 8
    Medium antitank guns: 21
    Heavy antitank guns: 21

    Das Reich SS Panzergrenadier Division
    Unit strength: 13,592
    Combat strength: 5,692
    Panzers (operational): 22
    Panzers (in repair): 138
    Assault guns (operational): 22
    Assault guns (in repair): 6
    Light Field Artillery: 36
    Heavy Field Artillery: 12
    100mm Cannon: 4
    20mm Flak: 37
    37mm Flak: 6
    88mm Flak: 12
    Medium antitank guns: 34
    Heavy antitank guns: 18

    3rd Panzer Division (reduced to Kampfgruppe)
    Unit strength: 10,218
    Combat strength: 3,991
    Panzers (operational): 30
    Panzers (in repair): 58
    Light Field Artillery: 23
    Heavy Field Artillery: 8
    100mm Cannon: 4
    20mm Flak: 39
    88mm Flak: 8
    Medium antitank guns: 14
    Heavy antitank guns: 26

    167th Infantry Division (reduced to Kampfgruppe)
    Unit strength: 5,747
    Combat strength: 1,749
    Light Field Artillery: 20
    Heavy Field Artillery: 7
    20mm Flak: 11
    Medium antitank guns: 8
    Heavy antitank guns: 1

    168th Infantry Division (reduced to Kampfgruppe)
    Unit strength: 9,193
    Combat strength: 2,471
    Light Field Artillery: 17
    Heavy Field Artillery: 5
    150mm Mortars: 10
    Medium antitank guns: 5
    Heavy antitank guns: 8

    Self-propelled Panzerjaeger Battalion 393
    Unit strength: no report
    Combat strength: no report
    Assault Guns (operational): 0
    Assault Guns (in repair): 7

    XLII Corps

    282nd Infantry Division
    Unit strength: 8,711
    Combat strength: 2,669
    Light Field Artillery: 12
    Heavy Field Artillery: 6
    Medium antitank guns: 2
    Heavy antitank guns: 4
    Attached:
    Assault Gun Battalion 905
    Unit Strength: 430
    Combat Strength: 150
    Assault Guns (operational): 2
    Assault Guns (in repair): 21

    39th Infantry Division (reduced to Kampfgruppe)
    Unit strength: 6,424
    Combat strength: 1,579
    Light Field Artillery: 21
    Heavy Field Artillery: 7
    Medium antitank guns: 13
    Heavy antitank guns: 14
    161st Infantry Division
    Unit strength: 6,257
    Combat strength: 2,422
    Light Field Artillery: 32
    Heavy Field Artillery: 11
    Medium antitank guns: 12
    Heavy antitank guns: 13

    355th Infantry Division
    Unit strength: 7,500
    Combat strength: 3,855
    Light Field Artillery: 24
    Heavy Field Artillery: 6
    100mm Cannon: 3
    Medium antitank guns: 13
    Heavy antitank guns: 26

    SS Cavalry Division
    Unit strength: 7,500
    Combat strength: 2,500
    Assault guns (operational): 4
    Assault guns (in repair): 3
    Light Field Artillery: 8
    Heavy Field Artillery: 3
    20mm Flak: 11
    88mm Flak: 4
    Medium antitank guns: 8
    Heavy antitank guns: 12

    6th Panzer Division (reduced to Kampfgruppe)
    Unit strength: 9,777
    Combat strength: 3,883
    Panzers (operational): 6
    Panzers (in repair): 48
    Light Field Artillery: 23
    Heavy Field Artillery: 12
    100mm Cannon: 4
    20mm Flak: 39
    88mm Flak: 8
    Medium antitank guns: 14
    Heavy antitank guns: 26

    Assault Gun Battalion 228
    Unit strength: 470
    Combat Strength: 165
    Assault Guns (operational): 4
    Assault Guns (in repair): 26

    Army Troops:
    Tiger Battalion 560
    Unit Strength: 648
    Combat Strength: 312
    Panzers (operational): 13
    Panzers (in repair): 18
    20mm Flak: 3

    Eighth Army totals (excluding Grossdeutschland)
    (Note: This report detailed only the strength organic to the divisions and that of
    independent panzer, assault gun, and panzerjaeger battalions, omitting all other
    artillery and engineer troops.)

    Unit strength: 159,598
    Combat strength: 61,327
    Panzers (operational): 158
    Panzers (in repair): 449
    Assault guns (operational): 51
    Assault guns (in repair): 82
    Light Field Artillery: 406
    Heavy Field Artillery: 137
    100mm Cannon: 27
    150mm Mortars: 10
    20mm Flak: 222
    37mm Flak: 17
    88mm Flak: 54
    Medium antitank guns: 253
    Heavy antitank guns: 292
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Holy Turtles, where did you get that? :)

    Now tying this up with the chronology...

    In any case, as I said this is a Stalingrad thread evolving into a post-Kursk one, shuldn't we be opening a new one instead?
     
  11. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    This is from book "Kursk - The German View"
     
  12. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Battle of Kursk (with Soviet Counteroffensive): July 4 - August 23, 1943

    So this are dates for German armor just before Kursk and at the end on 1943
     
  13. L J

    L J Senior Member

    [FONT=&quot]See? Almost perfect :)


    ..........operational.-.in repair.-.assigned or en route [/FONT]

    31-05-44:
    Tanks:
    AG SU:...........186.........87.........138
    AG NU:...........830........133.........229
    AG M:.............85.........14..........37
    AG N:.............91.........53..........30
    Total:..........1192........287.........434
    Sturmgeschutze:
    AG SU:...........194.........62.........278
    AG NU:...........480.........70.........185
    AG M:............404.........76..........68
    AG N:............241.........53..........69
    Total:..........1319........261.........680

    15-09-44:
    Tanks:
    AG S:.............51.........22..........43
    AG A:............179........133.........132
    AG M:............398........239..........76
    AG N:............595........153..........27
    Total:..........1223........547.........278
    StuG:
    AG S:.............62.........23..........95
    AG A:............198........181.........148
    AG M:............544........160..........92
    AG N:............410........133.........149
    Total:..........1214........497.........384

    For the non-initiated: :)
    AG: Army Group
    SU: South Ukraine
    NU: North Ukraine
    [FONT=&quot]M: Mitte (Centre)
    [FONT=&quot]N: North[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]S: South[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]A: Army Group 'A'[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]For the prevalence of StuGs, off the cuff we have to remember the large number of StuGs in organic batallions in PzGrn divisions, independent StuG brigades and battalions, organic StuG batteries in several types of divisiobal AT battalions, and also the replacement of tanks by StuGs in proper Pz Divs.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]It would be interesting to compare these data with the current operations, but that will be another thread, right? :) [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    How do you do that ? :unsure:
     
  14. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I'm a patient guy, LJ :)

    A word processor, separate the lines, insert to a table, convert the table into text, replace the tab marks by dots, etc. until I came to this.

    In May 44 in AG.Centre 85 tanks! This is less than a couple of batallions in paper, and right in the eve of Operation Bagration!
     
  15. L J

    L J Senior Member

    Damn! It will be easier when I can put this into a tabular shape, maybe later tonight I'll give it a go. :)

    The point I'm trying to reach is that outright losses were your 250 (I don't agree but I have my books packed away for a house move) but there were quite a number of recovered vehicles that were sent to depot. With the two counter-attack operations I mentioned above, one of the consequences was that not only combat more losses had been incurred, but the field parks were lost as well as the Soviet advance was extensive. So the final total number of post-Zitadelle losses was indeed rather bigger than your nominal "250". It is this larger figure that I'm after.

    I used to lurk in the Dupuy forum, but traffic used to be so slow that I even forgot where that is!
    At AHF :The war in Eastern Europe ,Qvist(the specialist) gives the German Panzerlosses for 5-20 july as less than 300 (but to know the exact number ? There are some 22 posts :confused: )Tigerlosses are some 15 . I have also the number of tanks at the beginning of Citadelle ,by division and divided by sort(Pz II, Pz III ,etc ). But having no word processor (what is a word processor ? :unsure: ) you will have a lot of work to make something surveyable of it :) .
     
  16. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    It very hard to find exactly number of destroyed German tanks and SPG's during the Battle of Kursk. Well what I succeed to find is that during operation the 503 Tiger Battalion lost four tanks during battle and a further four during the withdrawal. The 505 lost only four Tigers during the Kursk offensive but lost a further six by the end of July 1943. Three Tiger companies from 1, 2 and 3 SS Div had 42 Tigers, 35 were operational at the start of the Kursk offensive on 5 July 1943 of which three were lost, one from each company. The GroƟdeutschland lost none during the battle

    Tiger Tank Battalions during WWII - Page 2

    Also you can find some information about German losses in "Kursk 1943: a statistical analysis" (page 120-121 and 124-125)

    Kursk 1943: a statistical analysis - Google Books

    Unfortunately this is just preview of the book so there you can find only losses of Army Group Center and for II SS Panzer Corps (some pages are missing so there is no dates for losses of Army Group South).
     
  17. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    The devil take Google Books and bury it deep in the last pit of hell!

    How about looking at the proper book itself in paper as God wanted? Here, it even contains all the pages!
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    At AHF :The war in Eastern Europe ,Qvist(the specialist) gives the German Panzerlosses for 5-20 july as less than 300 (but to know the exact number ? There are some 22 posts :confused: )Tigerlosses are some 15 . I have also the number of tanks at the beginning of Citadelle ,by division and divided by sort(Pz II, Pz III ,etc ). But having no word processor (what is a word processor ? :unsure: ) you will have a lot of work to make something surveyable of it :) .

    LJ, if I wanted to discuss AHF figures I'd be a member of AHF and discuss them there, but thankfully I don't have the time in my life to be a member of all the forums that I might otherwise like to. :)

    Word processor? Well, Microsoft Office Word seems to be in quite common usage.
     
  19. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    My god, never thought this thread would come back to life. Anyway thanks for the numbers Rodinu, LJ and Sol :)
     
  20. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    There will be more next week. After I do the present house move and find the time to dig some books out :)

    Nice to see you around Exxley :cheers:
     

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