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Why Is Stalingrad So Important?

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by ghvalj, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Despite Stalin's extensive powers, I do not think he caused winter, that would be better left to a higher Power than his...

    And what decrepit army do you refer to, German 6th, Italian 8th, Romanian 4th? Or the Soviet army that burst through the latter two and encircled the first one? I am afraid you were not clear enough.
    Stalin claims it was the Lend Lease act that saved the Soviets, but from what I read there is no question that since the German army that had mauled them as though they didn't even exist until the -44C temperatures hit where the German’s cannon barrels cracked, their guns wouldn't fire (frozen grease) and their tanks wouldn't start, they are out of food and supplies, and their idiot dictator would not let them withdraw and hold out for a break in the weather, I call that weather and weather alone saving ones army. Of course the Russian army would have starved to death even during the help of the weather if not for the lend lease so Stalin was not completely wrong about that. An army dead from starvation is not very fearsome regardless of how little respect for human life they had before they died.

    The Soviets didn't have much of an army as proven by their inability to even slow the Germans down to flank speed in the juggernaut. Opposed by only half the density of enemy for their incredibly wide front as the west, the accounts of their victories were anything but tactical. Just throwing men, that mean absolutely nothing to you, at them hoping your enemy runs out of bullets in killing your endless supply of forced martyrs does not indicate an army or a plan of any type to me. An army is not measured by the number of men of its own men it gets slaughtered nor by how few tactics they know in modern warfare. The objective is to win alive unless you simply don't give a crap about human life like the Russian army proved it didn't throughout the war.

    Somehow people are awed by the ability of generals to order men to run at machine guns and shoot at them when they are afraid or apprehensive to do so. Not real leadership if you are talking about any other army than the Soviets, but mention the USSR and somehow this becomes "fantastic warfare". I am surprised that the wimpy soviet air force didn't load their soldiers into the bombays of their bombers and drop them on the heads of the Germans. That would be the equivalent of what they did on the ground and for some reason people think they had some kind of modern tactics. To me the Soviets were quite unimpressive almost so unimpressive that it’s impressive. Savages who fought like the mongrel hordes they came from. Lifeless, loveless and anything but an ally to the west who saved their skins.

    As far as a higher Power, Stalin would have had you killed for saying that, as religion of any kind was forbidden under a communist system. Other than that the Soviets were an excellent army.
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    They say a picture is worth ten thousand words. Perhaps looking at a map will make the magnitude of the effort clearer.

    If we follow through a website already mentioned in this thread, http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/ , we can go to Maps and see the line-up for Operation Uranus, the encirclement operation at http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/maps/stalingrad_map_6.htm . As we see this involved three Fronts mobilised against Heeresgruppe B, while Chuikov's 62nd Army kept Paulus' 6th army occupied. This is the concentration whose magnitude was kept hidden from German intelligence.

    If we see the same map 2 months later we see the second phase of the Soviet advance
    http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/maps/stalingrad_map_7.htm

    If this is what is meant by a decrepit army, I have two things to say:

    * First, I don't think it is political (or polite) to throw this kind of brickbats to a newbie (me!). Arguments yes, flame wars no, thank you.

    * Second, if this is what you call decrepit, you just wait 6 months for July-August '43 for you to see what were Operations Rumiantsev and Kutusov, for instance. :lol:
     
  3. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Calling someone a flamer is not much of a counterargument. Facts speak for themselves. It is a case of the emporer's new clothes. If he is naked, it's not flaming him, it is simply pointing out what most desire so greatly to deny.

    Europe living on the edge of the Soviet menace for the last 60 may have induced some undue reverence when the USSR is mentioned but to us in the States they are nothing more than a paper tiger that threatened mankind for years. They have brought nothing to mankind except fear and unrest. They were whores that climbed bed with Hitler and got burned trying to mess over Poland.

    But, even with not having lived with them tormenting my borders, I can still sympathize with the average European's feeling that they must somehow give them some undue reverence to appease them. Just don't expect me to dance when that flute is blown. Maybe its just time we start calling a spade, a spade. They will not kick in your door, I promise.

    As far as throwing around brickbats (whatever those are) you seemed perfectly willing to speak with a large degree of disdain for 6th Army and seeing how they kicked the Soviet's teeth in all the way across Europe and into the motherland in a few months until weather changed the importance of military capability, to the simple ability to endure cold temperatures. In that I might say you have tossed one or two yourself. Should I call you a 6th Army flamer or would that be a cheap shot responding in kind?

    I do find it strange that you considered that you should have some issue protection status as a newbie. You seem to deem a newbie as being owed something? That's a bit presumptuous if I do say so. You don't sound like a newbie at debating at all to me. Maybe a newbie here, but not a newbie in general.
     
  4. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    ...Facts speak for themselves. It is a case of the emporer's new clothes. ...

    ...

    As far as throwing around brickbats (whatever those are) you seemed perfectly willing to speak with a large degree of disdain for 6th Army and seeing how they kicked the Soviet's teeth in all the way across Europe and into the motherland in a few months until weather changed the importance of military capability, to the simple ability to endure cold temperatures. In that I might say you have tossed one or two yourself. Should I call you a 6th Army flamer or would that be a cheap shot responding in kind?

    ...

    You do carry quite a chip on your shoulder, don't you?

    You don't really add much of value to the discussion as you seem to only cling to the old "faceless oriental horde" theory.

    I'll only reply to the paragraph above. I'm not speaking with disdain of the 6th Army, as you yourself say "Facts speak for themselves". If they were so damned good why did they not march to Moscow or Outer Mongolia on their own? Instead, they were defeated! Sorry, that's the fact that speaks for itself. Don't tell me it was the cold, the Übermensh, oops!, the Germans were surprised by the cold in Winter 1941, in winter 1942 it was another story, they had learnt their lesson. But if you say they were still suffering from the effects of cold this implies you are calling the German Army incompetent and saying it was incapable of learning!

    And quite frankly I'm not convinced you know so much at all about these matters, if I browse through the forum I see for instance you asking some very basic, low level questions, this is a selection at random:

    You don't know what a Boys rifle is, 19-11-2005 http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology/5664-what-boys-rifle.html

    you don't know that a Jagdpanzer has gun traverse, 13-12-2005, http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology/5784-whats-diffrence-bettween-jagdpanther-pzr-4-a.html

    You don't know the intent of Dieppe, 04-02-2006, http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/battle-specifics/6203-dieppe-what-intent.html

    On the Bren gun, you don't know what a 'cone of fire' is, 29-12-2005, http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology/5880-bren-gun.html

    So I think you don't really know much, at least in what concerns ground warfare. It seems you don't like Russians (ok, that's your right, everyone to his tastes) but then you only come up with very, very old stereotypes. No arguments, just rants.

    You come across as an unpleasant person. Rant away, I am not going to respond. If you do decide to come up with a decent set of arguments I'm game, but per past posts I've read, even in this thread, I don't think I'll be interested in what you write, I'll simply ignore your posts.

    If you decide to make my stay here totally unpleasant, I don't care at all. I am a member of other forums, I can go back to them. This is my first day in this forum, thank you for trying to ruin it.
     
  5. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    No chip. I am a happy guy. Sorry you think I am trying to ruin your experience. I simply disagree with you. Its ok to disagree. It does not mean someone is trying to ruin your experience.

    There is a lot of things I don't know. You only found four of them. You aren't searching very hard.

    You can believe the Russians were gods for all I care. As far as I am concerned, I don't have to worship something or even appreciate it in order to not hate it. Seems to me you are a person of extremes. You either completely hate something or completely adore it and expect me to be the same way. If someone doesn't salute the flag you raise you view them as hostile. That's not pleasant friend. Intolerance is not a noble virtue.

    Why don't you try counterarguments instead of trying to insult me? After all you seemed to give no account to the winter affect on Stalingrad at all and since it claimed more lives than the weaponry did that's a pretty fundamental point to say didn't happen (you claimed I made no arguments). Did you even realize there was a winter time there? I thought my arguments were pretty straightforward and irrefutable. Maybe there was no Lend Lease to prevent their army from staving to death either. Maybe I have it all wrong and you have it all right. Who knows?
     
  6. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Okay people, things are getting out of hand here. please refrain from personal attacks otherwise action will be taken to ensure there is no more disruptive behaviour.
     
  7. USSR

    USSR Junior Member

    The battle of Stalingrad proved to the whole world and still proves today that USSR was the mover and winner of WWII
     
  8. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    The battle of Stalingrad proved to the whole world and still proves today that USSR was the mover and winner of WWII

    One battle dosn't win a war.
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Oh I so wish "stalin" was back here. We'd have WW 3 breaking out.
    Who would have thought the Cold War was over?

    :ruflag[1]: :sign_war: :patriot[1]: (Pity we haven't a USSR flag.)
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    ...After all you seemed to give no account to the winter affect on Stalingrad at all and since it claimed more lives than the weaponry did that's a pretty fundamental point to say didn't happen (you claimed I made no arguments). Did you even realize there was a winter time there?...

    Assuming things have cooled off a bit, I will reply to this specific point. You are right, I disregarded winter.

    As I told before, winter 1941 was the real schock for the Axis troops, that was when the High Command did totally neglect to prepare for winter as the war was to be finished by Autumn, so they thought. When we get to Stalingrad (winter 1942) the German High Command had provided for winter, with special clothing, lubricants etc, which was in fact a major logistical effort. All over the entire front the Axis troops in winter 1942 did not die in droves out of exposure, so something must be looking awkward here.

    Stalingrad as a special case, but why? This was the case after Operation Uranus, when the Soviets encircled 6th Army and therefore cut communications off. As we all know the Goering air bridge would never provide more than a fraction of the requisite supplies, so no heating fuel, no wood, no food, no medical supplies, no nothing. Therefore it's quite natural that the troops there were unable to cope with cold as satisfactorilly as the rest of the entire front, from Lappland to the Caucasus. So yes, there was a problem with cold, but this was localised at Stalingrad for special reasons.
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Ok well Jimbo is right when he says that Winter had an effect on the Battle and indeed it certainly didnt help the 6th Army's cause. But equally the Russians had to fight in it too. The fact that they were more prepared than the Germans counts for something though doesnt it?

    I would say that the Russians knew what they were doing when they strengthened the Flanks around Stlaingrad rather than throwing their men into the Mincer directly. I'm not revering the Russian army much less venerating it. Just stating a fact. And when will we ever progress from this stereotype that the Russians constantly sent Human Waves over? It is valid when discussing the initial stages of the war but it wears a little thin especially when we hear the "mongol Hordes" routine. Ill-informed people from the US might still buy into that stereotype but to us in Europe that actually can discuss this conflict without bringing intolerant prejudices into the equation we know a little better. And no its not venerating anyone. Its simply giving credit where its due. And while we're at it, it took Pearl Harbour to bring the US into the War. They did nothing about Poland, or France or the Balkan states being overrun. They did in fact exactly what Russia did. NOTHING. It took Germany declaring war on them to enter into it.


    If Russia was such a paper Tiger then how come it took you guys 60 years to figure it out? Sort of a bit of a failing on the U.S Intelligence services wasnt it?

    Mock them all you want. Call them Mongol Hordes. But let me assure you of one thing: zhukov deserves to be on the header of this site moreso than Patton. He did more to bring victory to the Allies than George!

    Whats really funny about all of this is the fact that I'm not normally a defender of the Red Army, that is until I saw some of the "I dont give a damn for history" posts that are clearly wrong or at least smacking of half-truths. If I'm to discard historical research from people who spend their lives devoted to the craft then why should I have to regard someone who just offers opinions which are not researched?
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    ... And when will we ever progress from this stereotype that the Russians constantly sent Human Waves over? It is valid when discussing the initial stages of the war but it wears a little thin especially when we hear the "mongol Hordes" routine. Ill-informed people from the US might still buy into that stereotype but to us in Europe that actually can discuss this conflict without bringing intolerant prejudices into the equation we know a little better...


    Gotthard, you may be interested to read Col. D. Glantz study "American Perspectives on Eastern Front Operations in WWII", at

    http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/e-front.htm

    Oh, and he's a tru-blue American :lol:
     
  13. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Yeah I have the paper and thought it was an excellent article. It seems that if you try and "balance out the views" of the red Army, then you are accused of worshipping them. Nothing is further from the truth. Its not that black and white. It gets wearisome trying to refute the same stereotypes that come up again and again.

    BTW, we shouldnt actually be reading that article Za Rodinu because its written by a "Historian". Yes to some people here that is a dirty word and we should discard that and go with our gut instincts and use some logic.
     
  14. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    Lol well welcome on this forum Rodinu and seems you've already met our local village... Just one thing though as Gotthard pointed out: dont expect to seriously debate with him, you're actually talking with a guy that doesnt even know his own country's history.

    Anyway, thanks for bringing up Glantz's article. I lost the link and the file some times ago and was looking for it.
     
  15. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    Jimbo is right when he says that winter had an effect on the battle, it certainly didn't help the 6th Army.

    Jim is absolutely correct about weather hampering the Wehrmacht on the Ost front.

    The fact that they were more prepared than the Germans

    The Russians learned from their defeats and losses then eventual victory over Finland. The Germans didn't learn from their victory in Norway to relate it to warfare in the East.

    Size has alot to do with the discussion gentlemen. Russia is the largest land mass breadth that modern Armies have attempted to conquer. It was amazing that German recce got almost, what 22km from Moscow.

    I would say that the Russians knew what they were doing when they strengthened the flanks around Stalingrad.

    That's not a revolutionary tactic, same as a siege

    Most of the Russians didn't know what a flush toilet was.

    Ill-informed people from the US might still buy into that stereotype but to us in Europe that actually can discuss this conflict without bringing intolerant prejudices into the equation we know a little better.

    I like the Russian people and like many of them hate communists.

    Wrong, so wrong. Liberalism is a disease and you will find that out just as they are in France. France, knowing so much more, the center of the earth, than the rest of us is or has run out of money to pay for its precious social programs. It's a sad state of affairs when my aunt can't get to her painting class because a bunch of do nothings rioting want a free ride. Hmm...I haven't been following it too closely...let me guess the government caved in to their demands and How are you going to pay for it???? This will spread over Europe like a plague. Hopefully we will stop it in America. Except, we are being invaded from the South at the moment. I don't think the French government wants Arabic as its primary language just as the US would like to keep English as the national language. England at least had Margaret Thatcher to thank, to try and reverse the socialistic mess and oh look... her economy has gotten better, what a surprise. Germany has smartened up and is trying with Angela Merkel to fix things as they did in England. Pro free market and deregulation. Trying to remove the bureaucratic socialistic crap that strangles economies.

    America has its problems too and we are trying to fix that. We have many of the same idiots that know if you promiss the people something(even if you can't pay for it) they'll vote for you. Another problem is with
    the mainstream media which believes it is on a political mission....We know better, they don't.

    Let me guess Gott, you are a teacher right. Brainwashed by the unions. Forgotten long ago how to think critically.

    And while we're at it:Cartangry: :rant: (ah yes, a good rant to disprove), it took Pearl Harbour to bring the US into the War. They did nothing about Poland, or France or the Balkan states being overrun. They did in fact exactly what Russia did. NOTHING. It took Germany declaring war on them to enter into it.

    My answer to you is so what. Nations are sovereign and should protect their own borders. What's wrong with Poland that they didn't have a modern army in 1939?
    France didn't loose the First World War and had no Versaille restrictions placed on them for rearmament. Yet they too had a pathetic army in 1940. The Balkan states could have had a cooperative alliance if they were too small to create an effective defensive force. Don't blame Hitler's victories on the US or Britain and Russia signed a dam pact with him. What did you expect the US to preemptive strike Germany? It was good that Britain had Churchill cause that piece of Paper Chamberlain waved was good for one thing(I had to include one bit of humoresque sarcasm).


    If Russia was such a paper Tiger then how come it took you guys 60 years to figure it out? Sort of a bit of a failing on the U.S Intelligence services wasnt it?

    Um....Do you read much...We won the Cold War dufuss.

    The failing would have been a Nuclear War and I'm still here.

    Mock them all you want. Call them Mongol Hordes. But let me assure you of one thing: Zhukov deserves to be on the header of this site moreso than Patton. He did more to bring victory to the Allies than George!

    Zhukov and Chuikov were probably the best the Russians had. But I don't remember the Russians sending any aid to England or starting a second front with Japan until the war was just about over. The Russians signed a Pact with Hitler. Patton and Montgomery did not...So since this is a British site..I think the header looks fine. If I were to make an improvement, I might have Courtney Hicks Hodges, instead of Patton.

    If I'm to discard historical research from people who spend their lives devoted to the craft then why should I have to regard someone who just offers opinions which are not researched?

    So I guess you believe the propagandistic crap that the NSDAP and communists put forth since many people devoted their lives to the craft. PHD doesn't mean S***T if what you devoted your time to was wrong. So you guys like Glantz and Hackworth because they've spent alot of time researching and are anti American, funny that they didn't make the rank of general. Spending time researching a nation that spent most of its life disinforming people doesn't mean that the research will be enlightening or correct. If anything it indicates the opposite.

    I will never understand how you people think this way.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    [FONT=&quot]And when will we ever progress from this stereotype that the Russians constantly sent Human Waves over?
    Gotthard, this was not a rare occurrence. It happened and happened a lot. Read the Germans and see how they actually felt sorry and grew sick of killing Russian after Russian running at their guns. You can't just say well it's been 60 years so let’s forget about it and call their leaders human respecters now. No, if they were monsters then, they will be monsters for all posterity. So when it comes to trumping up some praise for an army that didn't merit it, then you have to consider what were the facts then, not what is politically correct now.

    It is valid when discussing the initial stages of the war but it wears a little thin especially when we hear the "mongol Hordes" routine. Ill-informed people from the US might still buy into that stereotype but to us in Europe that actually can discuss this conflict without bringing intolerant prejudices into the equation we know a little better. And no its not venerating anyone. Its simply giving credit where its due.
    If this was an issue about the Russians fighting like Mongol Hordes then that would be a complement. This is talking about their barbarianism and their abuse of not only their own people, not only abuse of innocents whom they took land from just like Attila, not only the way they abused their enemy even after the war, but the way they crapped on even their “allies” who saved them from starvation and destruction by a vastly superior enemy.

    And while we're at it, it took Pearl Harbour to bring the US into the War. They did nothing about Poland, or France or the Balkan states being overrun. They did in fact exactly what Russia did. NOTHING. It took Germany declaring war on them to enter into it.
    What the heck are you talking about Gotthard? They friggen conspired with Germany to stab Poland in the back with Hitler! They did anything buy nothing! Surely that was a typo dude, you are not making Russia’s case here (though I admit that is a tall task to complete). But as far as the US in 1940/41, my understanding was that they were sick of getting drawn in to wars in Europe. I think WWI left a bad taste in their mouth. I don’t condemn then for naiveté. It’s not a dishonor to think the best of someone. In Russia’s case, it is just very hard to do.

    If Russia was such a paper Tiger then how come it took you guys 60 years to figure it out? Sort of a bit of a failing on the U.S Intelligence services wasnt it?
    Oh my. Do you folks in Europe and abroad get anything but liberal/socialist/communist talking points material in your media? Too much BBC, London Times, or Pravda? Do you know nothing at all about the US in the Cold War? The Cold War buildup in WWII was both a political maneuvering and a business. Now during the Korean conflict there was a illusion that Russia was advanced in the US. General Spineless Eisenhower was the biggest problem there. But as far as the rest of the Cold War, exposing the Russians as not a threat would have slashed defense spending including that of the CIA. Nobody in their right mind would do that, much less a bureaucrat! Follow the money Gotthard. Follow the money. Did you realize the US had a big defense industry and it was fueled by “keeping ahead of the Russians” who were about as backwards as technology in that day would allow them to be? Remember the North Korean in 1983 that fled with the Soviet MIG 19, the US took apart his plane and it still had vaccum tubes in the radio! An advanced fighter! Can you believe it? In 1983! Every design they came up with from WWII on was a copy of something British or something American and a very poor copy at that. Man, you gotta get out more Gottard!

    Mock them all you want. Call them Mongol Hordes. But let me assure you of one thing: zhukov deserves to be on the header of this site moreso than Patton. He did more to bring victory to the Allies than George!
    Oh yes, three weeks to take a crumbled city with a beaten and virtually unarmed enemy of literally old men and kids and table scraps of divisions while the Britain and the US sat by wondering if they would have to come in and help. I hear that Volksstrum really can put up a heck of a fight against heavy enemy armor and infantry divisions. I have heard their rock throwing is pretty good. It was amazing it only took three weeks for Zhukov. He is a Titan. I remember one 10 year old boy getting the Iron cross from Hitler for destroying a Russian T-34. Wow. I'll say it backwards, woW!

    The British erased Dresden to open a door for Russia and wiped out most of the resistance that was staging on the Eastern front to take on the Soviets. That was where the big conflict was to take place. In the Battle of Berlin Zhukov was about to be upstaged by Konev who could make headway. Even with the massive Russian forces and the shell defense army, in that simple three weeks, Zhukov lost more men than the US lost the entire war. That’s pretty pathetic. I would hardly put him in Patton’s class, especially since he faced only half the density of enemy throughout the entire eastern conflict.

    The Allies were planning to take Berlin with a paratroop division man! It was not the fortress that Zhukov’s barbaric losses would have left you to believe. If you ask me, I think starvation had more to do with the fall of Berlin when Zhukov was leading than war deaths. Like I stated earlier, just take those men and load them into bombers and drop them on the heads of the Germans. That would have made more progress and would have saved some men to boot.

    Man, just because a general gets more of his men killed than any other army does not mean he is somehow a great general. I could command and get people killed. It's not hard. Just abandon tactics and switch to brute force tactics. I suppose his taking over Stalingrad was what caused the cold weather to come in as well and change the outcome? You said one thing right. Give credit where it is due. That’s all I have asked on this thread and all I have done. Just not a lot of credit to go around for Russia. Name something good they did for anyone? Name an act of humanity they did throughout the entire war. Giving Churchill his favorite Brandy so he would give them Berlin does not count! Now that’s something you will probably have a lot of trouble finding .

    Whats really funny about all of this is the fact that I'm not normally a defender of the Red Army, that is until I saw some of the "I dont give a damn for history" posts that are clearly wrong or at least smacking of half-truths. If I'm to discard historical research from people who spend their lives devoted to the craft then why should I have to regard someone who just offers opinions which are not researched?
    You have yet to bring up one logical fact about history. You just bring up the same old chant of how great the Russians were without a single impressive fact to quote. You are the one posting the hogwash. You cannot post something that doesn’t cause us to have to close our eyes and forget everything we knew about RussiaRussia’s starving of Berlin, their raping of over 2 million women in Berlin, barbaric army that came from the east. Oh you are defending some jewels buddy!

    They were bums and recipients of the Allies good will to save then and then stabbed them in the back for the next 60 years and still continue today. Those ARE the undeniable facts regardless of whether it does or does not give people goose bumps when they talk about the Iron Curtain, they were just good folks misunderstood, folks that just got an unfair reputation from a bunch of outdated facts about human cruelty. Go to some of the eastern block countries who fell victim to their brutality and spew that crap and see what they think of it. They are liable to string you up to a light pole. They don't think its funny or cute. To them socialism/communism is not something they wish to "try" to fix an economy or improve civil rights, they know better.

    You might find they have a much different history than your PC books offer you. Sorry Gotthard, I wish I could paint a better picture but friend, it is what it is. If we cover up their brutality and hail them as heroes, then we should do the same to the brutal Nazis as well. I think we ought to leave that part of history as it was written. My conscience forbids me to dance to that tune.
    [/FONT]
     
  17. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Lol well welcome on this forum Rodinu and seems you've already met our local village... Just one thing though as Gotthard pointed out: dont expect to seriously debate with him, you're actually talking with a guy that doesnt even know his own country's history.

    Anyway, thanks for bringing up Glantz's article. I lost the link and the file some times ago and was looking for it.
    It's Exx again! I would have thought you would be out protesting that the government doesn't guarantee a job for you. I haven't seen Paris buring lately are you guys out of petrol?
     
  18. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    It's Exx again! I would have thought you would be out protesting that the government doesn't guarantee a job for you. I haven't seen Paris buring lately are you guys out of petrol?

    Mega Dittos:cowboy_125:
     
  19. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    It's Exx again! I would have thought you would be out protesting that the government doesn't guarantee a job for you. I haven't seen Paris buring lately are you guys out of petrol?

    Not sure anyone would be surprised that our village idiot once again choses to go off topic whenever he's confronted with historical facts he doesnt have any clue about.
     
  20. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    [FONT=&quot]
    You have yet to bring up one logical fact about history.
    [/FONT]

    Coming from someone who cant even tell when the EP was issued this is indeed quite interesting. Does our village idiot knows what a logical fact is and what history is about ?
     

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