Why Is Stalingrad So Important?

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by ghvalj, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. ghvalj

    ghvalj Junior Member

    Can anyone explain why that battle was so significant?
     
  2. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Well, that would take a book or a Master's Thesis, but Stalingrad erased the largest single Army in the German arsenal from its inventory, obliterating scores of divisions and their men. It was the first time a Field Marshal went in the bag. It was the end of the Germans controlling the initiative and offensives in the East. After that, they were limited to counterattacks -- big ones, like Manstein's and Kursk, but counterattacks all the same. It had a huge impact on German morale, bringing the first cracks in the Nazi facade. After Stalingrad (and very much too late), Goebbels called for "Total War" in a Germany that was still producing Bechstein pianos. Stalingrad was part of a crescendo of Axis defeats during a 90-day period that turned the war around: Guadalcanal, New Guinea, Alamein, and the Barents Sea. I would have to say that the big point in Stalingrad was that before that battle, Nazi propaganda was about Germany's "New Order" for Europe and the world. After Stalingrad, the tone shifted. Suddenly Germany was now the defender of Western civilization against Bolshevism. Even Goebbels recognized that Germany as on the defensive after Stalingrad.
     
  3. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Stalingrad frustrated all the German strategy for 1942, which was meant to seize the Soviet oil fields in the Caucasus, thus depriving the Soviets of this very important resource, and the Germans acquiring it.

    In summer 1942, the enormous Army Group 'South' fought back and defeated a Soviet offensive in the II Battle of Khárkov, then moved on Rostov and then split. Army Groups 'A' and 'B' were created. Army Group 'A' headed south, towards Bakú, whilst 'B' group advanced towards the Don plains and River Volga, thus forming a defensive northern flank for 'A' group.

    Army Group 'B', under colonel general Von Weichs, was short of manpower and could not actually defend all the Volga-Voroznieh line, and it had to be reinforced with Allied armies: II Hungarian, VIII Italian, III and IV Romanian. This group, however, had the largest field army of III Reich: the German VI (under general Friedrich Paulus), which comprised almost 22 veteran regular German divisions (3 Panzer) and was reinforced by IV Panzer Army.

    The problem was German weakness, because there was not enough air nor armoured power to support both groups simultaneously. Thus, the IV Air Fleet, covering the entire southern front, when focused at Stalingrad, left all Army Group 'A' to the Red Air Force. Also, I Panzer Army, heading south, could not encircle any large Soviet force on its own. IV Panzer Army was sent south to assist I Panzer Army, but then was re-called northwards to assist VI Army to encircle the defenders of Stalingrad in open ground. The final result was that IV Panzer Army did not support any army and the Soviet defenders broke through and withdrew, saving the bulk of their forces.

    Stalingrad was the largest and most important industrial city of the region, but it was soon bombed and destroyed by the Luftwaffe. After that, it didn't have much military value, in fact, it made the front longer and created a dangerous salient in the German line. But Hitler wanted the city because of its name, and Stalin wanted the city for the same reason.

    Now, once the fierce urban fight at Stalingrad started, Hitler became more and more obsessed with its capture, and forgot about the general German strategy; once the Caucasus offensive was halted by the Red Army, it was forgotten, and all German attention focused on that miserable heap of ruins called Stalingrad. Stalin, in the other hand, even if interested in keeping the city por propagandistic aims, did not buy Hitler's game and left the German Army bleed itself in that place of no value, whilst the Red Army strenghtened and organised worth offensives.

    At the city, a WWI-like fighting erupted, in which the Germans had every possible disadvantage, except numbers.

    The German command structure worked with divisions. The Soviets worked with 12-men squads.

    German all-arms co-ordination was impossible at Stalingrad, since Panzer and air crews had not been trained in urban fighting. Besides, all radio and telephone personnel, messengers and artillery and Luftwaffe observers were shot at the spot by Soviet snipers. These Soviet snipers were observers too, and they provided Soviet artillery (quietly laying in the opposite bank of the Volga) with valuable information. Therefore, when the Germans massed troops for an attack, enemy artillery soon destroyed their concentrations and disrupted or weakened attacks.

    Also, the Luftwaffe's bombardments had made the terrain perfectly suited for defence, and it miserably failed at cutting the Volga communications and neutralising Soviet artillery.

    The fighting in the city, from August to November 1942 costed the VI and IV Panzer German armies 150.000 casualties.

    On November 1942, a series of Soviet offensives started, having all possible advantages on their side and performing incredibly well, and rapidly encircled 250.000 German and Romanian troops. On February 1943, only 110.000 remained and surrendered.

    More Soviet offensives in winter 1942 against Army Group 'B' destroyed the armies: II German, II Hungarian, VIII Italian, III and IV Romanian and created gaps 100 km long. Army Group 'A' didn't suffered as much, and it was only when field marshal Von Manstein, commanding the improvised Army Group 'Don', managed to stabilise the front and prevent collapse and destroyed the Soviet offensive at the III Battle of Khárkov in early 1943.

    In all, Army Group 'South' lost 700.000 men from summer 1942 until spring 1943. This was, without a doubt and definately, the momment when the tide of the war went agaisnt Germany.
     
  4. mason

    mason Junior Member

    Originally posted by ghvalj@Mar 28 2005, 02:57 PM
    Can anyone explain why that battle was so significant?
    [post=32654]Quoted post[/post]
    stalingrad was important because germany needed the oil feilds. I think thats why they wre also fighting in the desert. :unsure:
     
  5. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by mason+Apr 17 2005, 05:42 AM-->(mason @ Apr 17 2005, 05:42 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ghvalj@Mar 28 2005, 02:57 PM
    Can anyone explain why that battle was so significant?
    [post=32654]Quoted post[/post]
    stalingrad was important because germany needed the oil feilds. I think thats why they wre also fighting in the desert. :unsure:
    [post=33258]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    What must be remembered was that Stalingrad was taken because of Hitler's orders, otherwise military thinking for centuries said that it is better to leave fortresses and cities alone until ready and the germans were in no way ready to take the city.

    By diverting troops to take the city, Hitler weaken the forces assigned to the Oilfields and effective ensured that the important oilfields were not taken and Stalingrad could not be taken.

    The German Army did leave pockets of Russians , who the Germans thought, were trapped and would be left to starve. The Russians trapped there carried sorties into the rear of the Germans and were a very sore thorn in the side of the Germans who had to divert troops to either capture or destroy the pockets of resistance.


    Von Paulus was made a Field Marshal by Hitler for the simple reason that since no german Field marshal had been captured then that concept would spur Von Paulus onto a victory.
     
  6. nolanbuc

    nolanbuc Senior Member

    Excellent explanations! :) Nothing to add. B)
     
  7. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Kiwi:

    First, Friedrich Paulus was not a 'von'. In fact, he was refused a post in the Navy because of 'lack of social status'.

    Second, it is important to mention that neither Army Group 'A' at the Caucasus nor Army Group 'B' in the northern flank had both enough armour or air support to achieve victory.

    Paulus' VI Army needed Hoth's IV Panzer Army to rapidly encircle and destroy all Soviet forces in the Don steppes before they could take shelter in the Volga. Hoth's support was not there and the Soviets withdrew their forces and prepared for the defence of Stalingrad: the city then had to be taken.

    Now, Von Kleist's I Panzer Army also needed Hoth's Panzers to reach Bakú's oil fields. But, again, Hoth was not there. IV Panzer Army was held as reserve and constantly transferred among both Army Groups. Same happened with the IV Air Fleet.

    In other words, German strategic incompetence and Soviet improved tactic knowledge decided the early parts of these campaigns.
     
  8. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Victory in the Battle of Stalingrad was important the Russians in that it represented the first major defeat of the Axis forces in on the wider continent of Europe.It was the stepping stone to the final act of Germany's homeland being embraced in the Russian bear hug from the East.

    It dismissed the notion of the invincibilty of the Wehrmacht and SS soldier on the field of battle.Moreover it indicated the quality of military leadership Hitler could muster.His obsession with the capture of one of the hallmarks of communism which the city of Stalingrad represented by the mere reference to Stalin's name led to the driving of his forces beyond their strength.I

    It proved to be the start of Hitler's lack in confidence in Goring and his Luftwaffe.Goring had been the "can do" man who promised he could keep the Stalingrad pocket supplied against a critical background.

    Hitler demonstrated to the Allied powers that his fundamental military strategy was to hold on to conquered ground no matter the cost and available resources.This strategy resulted in the tying up of over 260 divisions across all fronts at a critcal period beyond Stalingrad when German occupied territory on all fronts was being threatened.

    The defeat at Stalingrad made some of the German military thinkers assess their position with a degree of rationality regarding the outcome of the war.Hitler was proved to be no Genghis Khan as Paul Reynaud had referred to him in the dark days of the summer of 1940 but a politician whose luck was at the point of starting to run out.Hitler's popularity was based on delivering the rapid victory on the battlefield and the maintenance of prosperity of the German heimat.He had never known adversity from the days of asssuming power.He could not promise the Germans only"blood, tears, toil and sweat" that Churchill had offered to the British people or the cry of Mother Russia that motivated the Russians to resist the invader.

    Germany's industrial weakness was exposed in the long term even though Speer when he assumed the responsibility for Armaments and War Production, tried to keep Germany's head above water in terms of armour arms and ammunition output, the material losses at Stalingrad were hugh and resulted in the serious reductions of available stocks.The German High Command estimated that Stalingrad cost the Wehrmacht the 6 months production of armour and vehicles,3 to 4 months production of artillery and 2 months supply of small arms and mortars.
     
  9. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Friedrich H@Apr 18 2005, 11:04 AM
    Kiwi:

    First, Friedrich Paulus was not a 'von'. In fact, he was refused a post in the Navy because of 'lack of social status'.




    [post=33293]Quoted post[/post]


    I didn't say Paulus was a "von." Morse did. Anyway, I know Paulus was not a "von." What's more, his wife was Rumanian nobility, and she complained bitterly to him about the Nazi policies of aggression and enslavement, particularly the anti-Semitic policies. He loved her dearly.

    After Paulus went in the bag, and headed the pro-Soviet German forces, he never saw his wife again.
     
  10. WorldWarFreak

    WorldWarFreak Junior Member

    Another thing that helped the Russians win was the fact that Stalingrad had some major emotional value to Stalin himself. If Stalin had lost the city that was named after him it would be terribly humiliating, therefore he used whatever resources he could to defend that city. It may have been a small factor but indeed it helped in some ways.
     
  11. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Another thing that helped the Russians win was the fact that Stalingrad had some major emotional value to Stalin himself. If Stalin had lost the city that was named after him it would be terribly humiliating, therefore he used whatever resources he could to defend that city. It may have been a small factor but indeed it helped in some ways.

    Stalin knew that it would have been a great propaganda victory for the Germans, but he knew (and that was more important to him), that, the more resources Hitler threw in, the less resources he threw elsewhere (or, even better, the more resources he withdrew from elsewhere).

    In other words, whilst Hitler was concentrating his largest and most powerful army in the entire eastern front in that useless city, bleeding the Wehrmacht, the Red Army defended Stalingrad with little resources, whilst its numbers, experience and technology grew.

    Hitler kept reinforcing the VI Army within the city's ruins, whilst the Red Army prepared itself for a gigantic counter-offensive in the weakened Moscow front and a gigantic counter-offensive around Stalingrad.

    Stalin knew this, and he exploited it.
     
  12. WorldWarFreak

    WorldWarFreak Junior Member

    Even though Stalin was a war criminal he was most definatly a military genious.
     
  13. Friedrich H

    Friedrich H Senior Member

    Not a military genious at all. But a political genious, without a doubt. And one of his best skills at politics was precisely letting the generals do their work, supporting and/or shooting them when needed… :rolleyes:
     
  14. MaxPower

    MaxPower Discharged

    The military genious was Zukov

    He was also the only man brave enough to argue with Stalin to his face and One of few men that Stalin listened to

    Friedrich H where have you studied ?
     
  15. Gestapo

    Gestapo Discharged

    Im a man who fight in the first 20 days in Stalingrad on german side and i was shot by a sharshoter in my leg so thats why i get back in Berlin ( i could say that im a lucker that i have get the hell out fo Stalingrad).The answer is easy if Stalingrad have fall the Russia lose the war.Stalingrad was like sybol.Look at the name of the city Stalingrad the name of there leader Stalin.Stalingrad didnt have big strategy point it was a cold city near Volga river.After a bombing the city was fully destroyed we fight only for the ground.The civil people have die and the survivers have been hiding in the sewers.The russian soldiers have been with low moral they wear scare.They win thx to the cold winter.The winter in Stalingrad was -40 i hope you understand what this mean (it mean that if you fell asleap then your dead).This city was vittal part of USSR and vital part for the moral of the german army.
     
  16. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    (Gestapo @ Jan 24 2006, 03:31 PM) [post=44803]Im a man who fight in the first 20 days in Stalingrad on german side and i was shot by a sharshoter in my leg so thats why i get back in Berlin ( i could say that im a lucker that i have get the hell out fo Stalingrad).The answer is easy if Stalingrad have fall the Russia lose the war.Stalingrad was like sybol.Look at the name of the city Stalingrad the name of there leader Stalin.Stalingrad didnt have big strategy point it was a cold city near Volga river.After a bombing the city was fully destroyed we fight only for the ground.The civil people have die and the survivers have been hiding in the sewers.The russian soldiers have been with low moral they wear scare.They win thx to the cold winter.The winter in Stalingrad was -40 i hope you understand what this mean (it mean that if you fell asleap then your dead).This city was vittal part of USSR and vital part for the moral of the german army.
    [/b]
    Gestapo, why was it believed by Hitler that if Stalingrad had fallen that Russia would have surrendered or fallen? Important to the moral? Yes, but going to stop Russia from defending their homeland? That's another story. Why was it believed that Stalingrad would have stopped the Russians? If London had fallen, the British would have fought in other cities...why would the Russians have not done the same?
     
  17. Gestapo

    Gestapo Discharged

    (jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 09:35 PM) [post=44807](Gestapo @ Jan 24 2006, 03:31 PM) [post=44803]Im a man who fight in the first 20 days in Stalingrad on german side and i was shot by a sharshoter in my leg so thats why i get back in Berlin ( i could say that im a lucker that i have get the hell out fo Stalingrad).The answer is easy if Stalingrad have fall the Russia lose the war.Stalingrad was like sybol.Look at the name of the city Stalingrad the name of there leader Stalin.Stalingrad didnt have big strategy point it was a cold city near Volga river.After a bombing the city was fully destroyed we fight only for the ground.The civil people have die and the survivers have been hiding in the sewers.The russian soldiers have been with low moral they wear scare.They win thx to the cold winter.The winter in Stalingrad was -40 i hope you understand what this mean (it mean that if you fell asleap then your dead).This city was vittal part of USSR and vital part for the moral of the german army.
    [/b]
    Gestapo, why was it believed by Hitler that if Stalingrad had fallen that Russia would have surrendered or fallen? Important to the moral? Yes, but going to stop Russia from defending their homeland? That's another story. Why was it believed that Stalingrad would have stopped the Russians? If London had fallen, the British would have fought in other cities...why would the Russians have not done the same?
    [/b]As i say Stalingrad was a symbol for Russia and the two leaders Hitler and Stalin put all there power (all new tanks even tanks that they are testing).Hitler have forget about outher battles in the west front all his attention has been taget in the battle for Stalingrad.All best soldiers and best SS devisions wear heading to Stalingrad mine devision too and when we enter we wear fighting against mashingun nests.No one even thougnt what is to fight in the sewers in the dark and cold in the water without light.When we wear entering one flametrower was shoting for secounds to show us the path infront uf us we didnt see much.In those sewers we'v seen only civil womans with childrens but no mans any one was fighting even the small boys.The was part of the Russian army was the part fighting in Stalingrad this was the last big wave of soldiers.And if we beat them Stalin will capitulate or just escape from Russia.Moscow was the capital but it wasnt so vital like Stalingrad.I could say only one thing that any biger empere that attack Russia has lose but i thing that SS devision do theyre best to stop the russians and if germany has win the east europe has to be beter place.
     
  18. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    (Gestapo @ Jan 25 2006, 08:44 AM) [post=44816](jimbotosome @ Jan 24 2006, 09:35 PM) [post=44807](Gestapo @ Jan 24 2006, 03:31 PM) [post=44803]Im a man who fight in the first 20 days in Stalingrad on german side and i was shot by a sharshoter in my leg so thats why i get back in Berlin ( i could say that im a lucker that i have get the hell out fo Stalingrad).The answer is easy if Stalingrad have fall the Russia lose the war.Stalingrad was like sybol.Look at the name of the city Stalingrad the name of there leader Stalin.Stalingrad didnt have big strategy point it was a cold city near Volga river.After a bombing the city was fully destroyed we fight only for the ground.The civil people have die and the survivers have been hiding in the sewers.The russian soldiers have been with low moral they wear scare.They win thx to the cold winter.The winter in Stalingrad was -40 i hope you understand what this mean (it mean that if you fell asleap then your dead).This city was vittal part of USSR and vital part for the moral of the german army.
    [/b]
    Gestapo, why was it believed by Hitler that if Stalingrad had fallen that Russia would have surrendered or fallen? Important to the moral? Yes, but going to stop Russia from defending their homeland? That's another story. Why was it believed that Stalingrad would have stopped the Russians? If London had fallen, the British would have fought in other cities...why would the Russians have not done the same?
    [/b]All best soldiers and best SS devisions wear heading to Stalingrad mine devision too and when we enter we wear fighting against mashingun nests.[/b]
    And maybe we might know which SS Divisions were really heading for Stalingrad ?
     
  19. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Exx, now come on! Dont tell me you've been reading books by "historians" again have you? everyone knows that the SS were crawling all over Stalingrad. Dont read those books that say that there were no SS in Stalingrad!!! images/smilies/default/tongue.gif
     
  20. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    Lol so true. I suppose it's indeed better to stick to a former "SS officer and Gestapo official" that was "wounded at Stalingrad by a sharpshooter" than to listen to what Glantz, Ziemke, Erickson, Beevor can tell us images/smilies/default/biggrin.gif
     

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