Ozjohn39 - don't know where you get your figures from for the Alamein Battle but while it is true that the German ONLY had four Divisions to the Italians six - the British had six - 1st - 7th - 10th Armoured -51st - 50th and 44th - this was backed by Australians 1 - NZ - 1 - Indian - 1 France - 1 and one Greek bde. Cheers
The argument still goes on today. I can remember having a fair few arguements in Iraq with chaps from 4th Brigade who swore they were the originals. Red Rat wins it everytime for me
Spidge - not too surprising to learn that the total casualties of 9th Australians equalled the entire - Xth Corps - which consisted of 1st- 7th and 10th Armoured Divisons which were tasked - as you rightly say - with the break out. Roles were entirely different as the Australians in X111 corps and also XXX corps of 51st - 50th and 44th were assault troops and heavily involved in breaking the line and the crumbling attacks as opposed to armour pursuing the enemy - Corps de Chasse -much easier task....especially when they couldn't catch him ! which brings on the other myth that Rommel was short of fuel which led to his boss - Kesselring - asking why he was able to bring the entire DAK back all the way to Tripoli ??? Cheers
Personally I prefer British and Commonwealth Forces, as Commonwealth Forces suggests a lack of Brits. U.K.C.B.E.F is just shudderingly unpleasant even just to look at.
Ozjohn39 - don't know where you get your figures from for the Alamein Battle but while it is true that the German ONLY had four Divisions to the Italians six - the British had six - 1st - 7th - 10th Armoured -51st - 50th and 44th - this was backed by Australians 1 - NZ - 1 - Indian - 1 France - 1 and one Greek bde. Cheers Hi Tom, The French only had a Brigade and South Africa had a division. Army Troops Kings Dragoon Guards 3 South African Armoured Car Regiment 4/8 South African Armoured Car Regiment 8th Army Troops RE 295 Field Company RE 566 Army Troops Company RE 568 Army Troops Company RE 25 Field Company South African Engineers 27 Field Company, South African Engineers 31 Field Company, South African Engineers 8th Army Signals HQ British 8th Armoured Division under Major-General Charles Henry Gairdner 146 Field Regiment RA 73 Anti-tank Regiment RA 56 LAA Regiment RA 6 Field Squadron RE 9 Field Squadron RE 145 Field Park Squadron RE 8 Armoured Division Signals 1st Army Tank Brigade under Brigadier Price 42 Royal Tank Regiment 44 Royal Tank Regiment [/list] both equipped with minesweeping Matilda tanks British XXX Corps Under the command of Lieutenant General Oliver Leese 2 Medium Regiment RA 64 Medium Regiment RA 69 Medium Regiments RA 66 Mortar Coy RE 11 Field Company, South African Engineers 13 Field Company, South African Engineers 22 Field Park Company, South African Engineers XXX Corps Signals 9th Australian Division under Major General Leslie Morshead 9 Division Cavalry Regiment 2/2 Machine Gun Battalion 2/3 Pioneer Battalion 2/7 Field Regiment, Royal Australian Artillery 2/8 Field Regiment, RAA 2/12 Field Regiment RAA 3 Anti-tank Regiment, RAA 4 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RAA 2/3 Field Company, Royal Australian Engineers 2/7 Field Company RAE 2/13 Field Company RAE 2/4 Field Park Company RAE 9 Australian Division Signals Australian 24th Brigade under Brigadier Arthur H.L. Godfrey 2/28th Australian Infantry Battalion, Western Australia (WA) 2/32nd Australian Infantry Battalion, Victoria (Vic.) 2/43rd Australian Infantry Battalion, South Australia (SA) Australian 26th Brigade under Brigadier David A. Whitehead 2/23rd Australian Infantry Battalion, Vic. 2/24th Australian Infantry Battalion, Vic. 2/48th Australian Infantry Battalion, SA Australian 20th Brigade under Brigadier H. Wrigley 2/13th Australian Infantry Battalion, New South Wales (NSW) 2/15th Australian Infantry Battalion, Queensland (Qld) 2/17th Australian Infantry Battalion, NSW British 23rd Armoured Brigade under Brigadier George W. Richards 186 Valentine tanks 8 Royal Tank Regiment [u/c from 1 SA Division] 40 Royal Tank Regiment 46 Royal Tank Regiment 50 Royal Tank Regiment British 51st (Highland) Infantry Division under Major General Douglas Wimberley 51st Reconnaissance Battalion 1/7 Bn Middlesex Regiment (machine gun bn) 126 Field Regiment Royal Artillery 127 Field Regiment RA 128 Field Regiment RA 61 Anti-tank Regiment RA 40 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA 274 Field Company RE 275 Field Company RE 276 Field Company RE 239 Field Park Company RE 51st Highland Division Signals British 152nd Infantry Brigade under Brigadier George Murray 2 Bn Seaforth Highlanders 5 Bn Seaforth Highlanders 5 Bn Cameron Highlanders British 153rd Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Douglas Graham 5 Bn Black Watch 1 Bn Gordon Highlanders 4/7 Bn Gordon Highlanders British 154th Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Henry W. Houldsworth 1 Bn Black Watch 7 Bn Black Watch 7 Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders 2nd New Zealand Division under Lieutenant-General Bernard Freyberg 2 NZ Division Cavalry Regiment 27 Bn (machine gun bn) 4 Field Regiment Royal NZ Artillery 5 Field Regiment RNZA 6 Field Regiment RNZA 7 Anti-tank Regiment RNZA 14 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RNZA 6 Field Company Royal NZ Engineers 7 Field Company RNZE 8 Field Company RNZE 5 Field Park Company RNZE 2 NZ Division Signals New Zealand 5th Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Howard Kippenberger 21 Battalion 22 Battalion 23 Battalion 28th Māori Battalion New Zealand 6th Infantry Brigade under Brigadier William Gentry 24 Bn New Zealand Infantry 25 Bn New Zealand Infantry 26 Bn New Zealand Infantry British 9 Armoured Brigade under Brigadier John Currie 35 Sherman, 37 Grant, 46 Crusader =118 3rd (The King's Own) Hussars Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry Warwickshire Yeomanry 14 Bn Sherwood Foresters South African 1st Infantry Division under Major-General Dan Pienaar 3rd South African Armoured Car Reconnaissance Regiment Regiment President Steyn (Machine gun battalion) 2nd Regiment Botha 1st Field Regiment, Cape Field Artillery, South African Artillery 4th Field Regiment, SAA 7th Field Regiment, SAA 1st Light Anti-aircraft Regiment, SAA 1st Anti-tank Regiment, SAA 1 Field Company, South African Engineers 2 Field Company, SAE 3 Field Company, SAE 5 Field Company, SAE 19 Field Park Company, SAE 1 SA Division Signals South African 1st Infantry Brigade under Brigadier E.P. Hartshorn 1st Duke of Edinburgh's Own Rifles 1st Royal Natal Carabineers 1st Transvaal Scottish South African 2nd Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Evered Poole 1st Cape Town Highlanders 1st Natal Mounted Rifles 1st/2nd Field Force Battalion South African 3rd Infantry Brigade under Brigadier ? 1st Imperial Light Horse 1st Rand Light Infantry 1st Royal Durban Light Infantry Indian 4th Infantry Division under Major-General Francis Tuker Central India Horse (Reconnaissance) 5th Bn 6th Rajputana Regiment (machine gun) 1 Field Regiment Royal Artillery 11 Field Regiment RA 32 Field Regiment RA 149 Anti-tank Regiment RA 57 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA 4 Field Company, Bengal Sappers and Miners 12 Field Company, Madras Sappers and Miners 21 Field Company, Bombay Sappers and Miners 11 Field Park Company, Madras Sappers and Miners 4 Indian Division Signals Indian 5th Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Dudley Russell 1/4 BN The Essex Regiment 4 BN (Outram's) 6th Rajputana Rifles 3 BN Queen Mary's Own 10th Baluch Regiment Indian 7th Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Alan Holworthy 1 BN The Royal Sussex Regiment 4 BN 16th Punjab Regiment 1 BN 1 BN 2nd King Edward's Own Goorkha Rifles Indian 161st Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Francis E.C. Hughes 1 Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders 1st Bn 1st Punjab Regiment 4th Bn 7th Rajput Rifles British XIII Corps Under command of Lieutenant-General Brian Horrocks 577 Field Company RE 578 Field Company RE 576 Field Park Company RE 13 Corps Signals British 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division under Major-General John Nichols 2 Bn Cheshire Regiment (machine gun bn) 74 Field Regiment RA 111 Field Regiment RA 124 Field Regiment RA 154 Field Regiment RA 102 Anti-tank Regiment RA 34 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA 233 Field Company RE 505 Field Company RE 235 Field Park Company RE 50 Northumbrian Division Signals 1st Greek Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Pausanias Katsotas 1st Infantry Battalion 2nd Infantry Battalion 3rd Infantry Battalion 1st Artillery Regiment 1st Machine Gun Company 1 Engineer Company British 151st Infantry Brigade29 October3 November under Brigadier Joscelyn E.S. Percy 6 Bn Durham Light Infantry 8 Bn Durham Light Infantry 9 Bn Durham Light Infantry British 69th Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Edward C. Cooke-Collis 5 Bn East Yorkshire Regiment 6 Bn Green Howards 7 Bn Green Howards British 44th (Home Counties) Infantry Division under Major-General Ivor T.P.Hughes 44 Reconnaissance Battalion 6 Bn Cheshire Regiment (machine gun bn) 53 Field Regiment RA 57 Field Regiment RA 58 Field Regiment RA 65 Field Regiment RA 57 Anti-tank Regiment RA 30 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA 11 Field Company RE 209 Field Company RE 210 Field Company RE 211 Field Park Company RE 44 Home Counties Division Signals British 132nd (Kent) Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Lashmer Whistler 4th Bn. The Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment 5th Bn.The Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment 2nd Bn. The Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment) British 7th Armoured Division under Major-General John Harding 1 Household Cavalry Regiment 11th Hussars [under command from 4th Armoured Brigade] 2nd Derbyshire Yeomanry [under command from 8th Armoured Div] 3 Field Regiment RHA 4 Field Regiment RA 97 Field Regiment RA 65 Anti-tank Regiment RA 15 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA 4 Field Squadron RE 21 Field Squadron RE 143 Field Park Squadron RE 7 Armoured Division Signals British 4th Light Armoured Brigade under Brigadier Marcus G. Roddick 57 Stuart, 14 Grant –71 tanks Royal Scots Greys 4th/8th Hussars 1st Bn King's Royal Rifle Corps British 22nd Armoured Brigade under Brigadier George "Pip" Roberts 57 Grant, 46 Crusader, 19 Stuart-122 tanks 1 Royal Tank Regiment 5 Royal Tank Regiment 4 County of London Yeomanry 1 Bn Rifle Brigade British 131st Infantry Brigade under Brigadier William Donovan Stamer 1/5 Bn Queens Regiment 1/6 Bn Queens Regiment 1/7 Bn Queens Regiment 1st Free French Brigade under Brigadier Marie Pierre Koenig 2 Foreign Legion Bn 3 Foreign Legion Bn 1 March Bn 1 Artillery Regiment British X Corps Under command of Lieutenant-General Herbert Lumsden 571 Field Company RE 572 Field Company RE 573 Field Company RE 570 Field Park Company RE 10 Corps Signals British 1st Armoured Division under Major-General Raymond Briggs 12th Royal Lancers 4/6 South African Armoured Car Regiment 2 Field Regiment RHA 4 Field Regiment RHA 11 Field Regiment RHA [ex 8th Armoured Div] 76 Anti-tank Regiment RA 42 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment RA 1 Field Squadron RE 7 Field Squadron RE 1 Field Park Squadron RE 1 Armoured Division Signals British 2nd Armoured Brigade under Brigadier Arthur Fisher 92 Sherman, 68 Crusader-160 tanks 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays) 9th Queen's Royal Lancers 10th Royal Hussars Yorkshire Dragoons British 7th Motor Brigade under Brigadier Thomas J. Bosville 2 Bn Kings Royal Rifle Corps 2 Bn Rifle Brigade 7 Bn Rifle Brigade British 10th Armoured Division under Major-General Alexander Gatehouse Royal Dragoons 1 Field Regiment RHA 5 Field Regiment RHA (attached from 8 Armoured Div) 104 Field Regiment RHA (attached from 8 Armoured Div) 98 Field Regiment RA 84 Anti-tank Regiment RA 53 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment RA 2 Field Squadron RE 3 Field Squadron RE 141 Field Park Squadron RE 10 Armoured Division Signals 8th Armoured Brigade under Brigadier Edward C.N. Custance 45 Crusader, 57 Grant, 31 Sherman-133 tanks 3 Royal Tank Regiment The Nottinghamshire Yeomanry (Sherwood Rangers) Staffordshire Yeomanry British 24th Armoured Brigade under Brigadier Arthur G. Kenchington 93 Sherman, 45 Crusader=138 tanks 41 Royal Tank Regiment 45 Royal Tank Regiment 47 Royal Tank Regiment 11 Bn Kings Royal Rifle Corps British 133rd Infantry Brigade under Brigadier Alec W. Lee 2nd Bn, The Royal Sussex Regiment 4th Bn, The Royal Sussex Regiment 5th Bn, The Royal Sussex Regiment
Often overlooked and very rarely mentioned in most works concerning the Desert War, is Leclerc's (then a colonel) small Free French force coming up from Chad into Libya. They battled the Italians in several locations with Koufra being the main objective, where they took the famous "Vow of Koufra" pledge to continue fighting until their flag flew over Strasbourg. This took place in early 1941, before Bir Hakeim. These men would form the nucleus of what would later become the French 2nd DB (armored division). Leclerc then drove his troops northwards across the Sahara until they met and joined the US/UK forces, fighting alongsides them in Tunisia.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah - cannot keep the overview. Rommel's fuel supplies during the retreat. Now the Free French. Will open seperate posts. Bacht to the original question: If we say "British and Commonwealth Forces" - does ths include the Indians as well?
India did not join the commonwealth until 1947 so I would say that no they did not come under the commonwealth but forces of the British Empire. My reasoning for my tounge in cheak comment The North African campaign before tourch was fought by the U.K.C.B.E.F. (United Kingdom, Commonwealth, British Empire, Force) WotNoChad? Personally I prefer British and Commonwealth Forces, as Commonwealth Forces suggests a lack of Brits. U.K.C.B.E.F is just shudderingly unpleasant even just to look at. Unfortunately I think that we have to accept that after Dunkirk in June 1940 the British Forces and their equipment were severely overstrecthed, so lack of Brits at the beginning of the North African campaign is probably correct and without the help of Commonwealth and British Empire forces our history books may well be telling a different story.
The German Order of Battle. (Field marshal Erwin Rommel, Georg Stumme at the start of the battle in Rommel's absence) Army troops German 90th Light Afrika Division (GeneralMajor Ernst Strecker) 155th PanzerGrenadier Regiment (with 707th Heavy Infantry Gun Company) 200th PanzerGrenadier Regiment (with 708th Heavy Infantry Gun Company) 346th PanzerGrenadier Regiment (should be 361st, 346th assigned to 217th Inf Div, the 361st was formed in theatre from former french foreign legionaires of german origin) 190th Artillery Regiment 190th Anti-tank Battalion under command: Force 288 (PanzerGrenadier Regiment 'Afrika', the three battalions listed after this are not part of this 8-to-10 company detatchment) 605th Anti-tank Battalion 109th Anti-aircraft Battalion 606th Anti-aircraft Battalion German 164th Light Afrika Division (GeneralLeutenant Carl-Hans Lungershausen) 125th Infantry Regiment 382nd Infantry Regiment 433rd Infantry Regiment 220th Artillery Regiment 220th Engineer Battalion 220th Cyclist Unit 609th Anti-aircraft Battalion Ramcke Parachute Brigade (GeneralMajor Hermann-Bernhard Ramcke) One battalion each from 2nd, 3rd and another Parachute Regiments (1st bn's 2 & 3, 2nd bn 5th) Lehrbattalion Burkhardt Parachute Artillery Battery Parachute Anti-tank Battalion German Afrika Korps (GeneralLeutnant Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma) German 15th Panzer Division (GeneralMajor Gustav von Vaerst) 8th Panzer Regiment 113th PanzerGrenadier Regiment (should be 115th, 113th was assigned to 1st Pz Div) 33rd Artillery Regiment 33rd Anti-tank Battalion 33rd Engineer Battalion German 21st Panzer Division (GeneralMajor Heinz von Randow) 5th Panzer Regiment 104th PanzerGrenadier Regiment 155th Artillery Regiment 39th Anti-tank Battalion 200th Engineer Battalion
The argument still goes on today. I can remember having a fair few arguements in Iraq with chaps from 4th Brigade who swore they were the originals. Red Rat wins it everytime for me The 7th Armd Bde ought to have the green jerboa. As it changed to that colour in 1942 when it went to burma. 4th Armd Bde changed to a black rat in April 1943 when it became independant. It was 7th Armd Div that had the red one. 4th & 7th Armd Bde were both original formations with in 7th Armd Div so no need for any arguements Andy. History of the 4th and 7th Armoured Brigades (Black Rats and Green Jerboa) Main Page
Spidge - I certainly did miss out the Soth Africans but that hardly made the British into a minority as opposed to the German vis a vis the Italians... Cheers
Spidge - I certainly did miss out the South Africans but that hardly made the British into a minority as opposed to the German vis a vis the Italians... Cheers Certainly does not!
The 7th Armd Bde ought to have the green jerboa. As it changed to that colour in 1942 when it went to burma. 4th Armd Bde changed to a black rat in April 1943 when it became independant. It was 7th Armd Div that had the red one. 4th & 7th Armd Bde were both original formations with in 7th Armd Div so no need for any arguements Andy. History of the 4th and 7th Armoured Brigades (Black Rats and Green Jerboa) Main Page Cheers Owen I never knew about the Green one. I only joined in with the banter and couldn't really comment, I was only attached to the Sig Sqn for the tour. Any ideas where the Yellow/Beige one originates from? (The pic I posted) Cheers Andy
Picture 1 The first Desert Rat Flash designed Mrs Peyton in 1940 worn by the newly formed 7th Armoured Division Picture 2 The green jerboa worn by the 7th Armoured Brigade in Burma Picture 3 The black jerboa worn by the 4th Armoured Brigade Picture 4 The final Divisional flash of the 7th Armoured Div introduced in 1943 when the Div arrived back in the UK and is still worn to this day
Moreover, some post-war accounts also mention that the term Desert Rats" was used as a nickname to designate the members of the LRDG, though afterwards it was retained as the officiel nickname of the 7th armoured div.
Don´t forget as members of the Western Desert Forces the Poles and Czechs who fought alongside the 9th Diggers at Tobruk.
I wonder what the view of the locals in Libya was at the time. Did they activley support either side. They were the only ones who seemed certain to loose regardless of the results of the battles.
Don´t forget as members of the Western Desert Forces the Poles and Czechs who fought alongside the 9th Diggers at Tobruk. The Poles and Czechs entered Tobruk after the 9th Australian Division was withdrawn Oct-Nov 1941.
This was the Order of Battle for Tobruk April 1941 which repulsed Rommels first advance on Tobruk. HQ 9th Aust Div & Tobruk Fortress 9th Aust Div Intelligence Sec HQ 3d Armored Bde (60 x tanks working; another 26 tanks in repair) 3d Hussars/5 the Royal Tanks (Det 4 x light tanks and 18 x cruisers) 1st Royal Tank Regt (Det 15 x light tanks and 19 x cruisers) 1st Kings Dragoon Guards (30 x armored cars) 4th Royal Tank Regt (Troop of 4 x infantry tanks) 18th Cavalry Regt (Indian) HQ Royal Horse Artillery 1st RHA Regt (16 x 25-pounders) 3d RHA (minus one btry) (16 x 2-pounder antitank guns) 104th RHA Regt (16 x 25-pounders) 107th RHA Regt (16 x 25-pounders) 51st Field Regt (12 x 18-pounders and 12 x 4.5 inch how) 2-3d Aust Antitank Regt (Unk no., type, Bofors (minus one btry) 37-mm; Breda 47/32-mm; 2-pounders) HQ Royal Australian Engineers 2-3d Aust Field Company 2-7th Aust Field Company 2-13th Aust Field Company 2-4th Aust Field Company 2-4th Aust Field Park Company 2-1st Aust Pioneer Battalion Signals 9th Aust Div HQ 18th Aust Inf Bde Sig Sec 16th Aust Antitank Company 2-9th Aust Inf Bn 2-10th Aust Inf Bn 2-12th Aust Inf Bn HQ 20th Aust Inf Bde Sig Sec 20th Aust Antitank Company 2-13th Aust Inf Bn 2-15th Aust Inf Bn 2-17th Aust Inf Bn HQ 24th Aust Inf Bde (-) (2-25th Inf Bn still in Australia) Sig Sec 24th Aust Antitank Co 2-28th Aust Inf Bn 2-43d Aust Inf Bn HQ 26th Aust Inf Bde Sig Sec 26th Aust Antitank Co 2-23d Aust Inf Bn 2-24th Aust Inf Bn 2-48th Aust Inf Bn 1 Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (Machine Gun Bn) HQ Aust Army Service Corps (AASC) 9th Aust Div Supply Column 9th Aust Div Ammunition Co 9th Aust Div Petroleum Co Composite Co AASC 7th Aust Div Supply Column 2-3d Aust Field Ambulance Co 2-8th Aust Field Ambulance Co 2-11th Aust Field Ambulance Co 2-5th Aust Field Ambulance Co 2-4th Field Hygiene Co 9th Aust Div Provost Co 9th Aust Div Protection Platoon 9th Aust Div Empl Platoon 9th Aust Div Postal Unit 9th Aust Salvage Unit Fortress Troops Royal Artillery HQ 4th Antiaircraft (AA) Bde 13th Light AA Regt 14th Light AA Regt 51st Heavy AA Regt 3d Aust Light AA Regt Notts Yeomanry (coast defense) Royal Engineers (under chief royal engineer, 9th Aust Div) 295th Field Co Royal Engineers 551st Tps Co Royal Engineers 4th Field Sqd Royal Engineers 143d Field Park Troops Signals (under Cdr Signals, 9th Aust Div) K Base Section 27th Line Maintenance Section Royal Army Service Corps (RASC) 309th Reserve Motor Co 345th Reserve Motor Co 550th Co RASC 4th Lt AA Bde RASC Sec 13th Lt AA Regt No. 1 Water Tank Co Medical 16th MAC Ordnance (Royal Army Ordnance Corps [RAOC]) 2d Armored Div Workshops RAOC Y Army Tank Receiving Section, RAOC 2d Spt Gp Ord Field Park Sec, RAOC A Sec Ord Field Park AAOC 2-1st AFW AAOC Det 2-2d AFW AAOC Tobruk Subarea HQ Tobruk Subarea 1st Libyan Refugee Bn 2d Libyan Refugee Bn 4th Libyan Refugee Bn HQ 45th Group 1205th Indian Pioneer Co 1206th Indian Pioneer Co 1207th Indian Pioneer Co Libyan Work Bn Army Post Office H Adv Stationary Depot Transit Camp Misc Detachments: Greek Civilians POW Cage [/LIST]