Which mark of 5th Div Universal Carrier is this, in Sicily?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Owen, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    My current avatar is from this picture. IWM photo NA 5752
    [​IMG]


    Is this a Mark I or Mark II Universal Carrier?

    I read just now that one difference between the two is the tubular hand rail along the sides.
    I know MkII had different side skirts but they aren't on this vehicle anyway.
    What other differences were there?
    What camo scheme did 5th Div's Carriers have in Sicily in 1943?

    The formation sign will be a red square I know and the white "Y" Div sign, what other markings should be on them?
    [​IMG]


    Also the IWM caption for this photo says it's Pedara, but Pedara churh looks like this.
    Similar but not the same.
    http://www.etnasci.it/immagini/paesi-etnei/pedara.jpg
    [​IMG]

    It is actually TRECASTAGNI, which matches up with their War Diary.

    http://www.trecastagniweb.it/img/trecastagni_salfio_m.jpg
    [​IMG]
     
  2. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Well done Sherlock. Did you inform them of their error?
     
  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just sent email now.
    In Martin MacIntyre's book on The Wiltshire Regiment he has it as Paterno.
    Wrong again!
    Just told The Wardrobe too.
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Carrier-spotting is a nightmare, at Beltring these days we tend to just say 'carrier' ;)
    According to Chamberlain & Ellis the big difference between Universal Carriers Mark I & II (except for engine and stowage changes) is the mark II having a waterproof welded hull as opposed to the bolts and rivets of the mark I but even this is inconclusive as other countries manufactured them and seem to have used both styles of construction for their 'Mark II's'.
    To illustrate how confusing it is; Quick list of official types of carrier:

    Carrier, Universal Mk I (also covers the earlier Bren carriers... dozens of 'em))
    Carrier, Universal No.2 Mk I (engine variant)
    Carrier, Universal No.2A Mk I (engine variant)
    Carrier, Universal No.3 Mk I* (Canadian)
    Carrier, Universal No.1 Mk II (welded, stowage, smoke dischargers)
    Carrier, Universal No.2 Mk II (engine variant)
    Carrier, Universal No.2A Mk II (engine variant)
    Carrier, Universal No.3 Mk II* (modified air inlet and engine cover)
    Carrier, Universal No.1 Mk III (engine variant)
    Carrier, Universal No.2 Mk III (engine variant)
    Carrier, Universal No.2A Mk III (engine variant)
    Carrier, Universal No.3 Mk III* (Canadian)
    8 more MMG variations,
    5 more OP Variations,
    8 more Mortar carriers,
    3 Flame variants
    and a whole extra slew of Australian and new Zealand produced variants along with Windsors and T16's... not forgetting countless field modifications.

    In short; they all mostly look the sodding same from the kind of angle on your picture.
    See why we stick to 'carrier'? :mellow: :wacko: o_O

    Cheers,
    Adam.

    (well spotted on the church thing.)
     
  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Knew it wouldn't be straight forward.
    What about camo then?
    Green & black, just green?
    Or so coated in Sicilian dust it didn't matter if it was bright pink ?
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Ask Ron or Gerry. ;)

    I no longer trust any of my camo 'reference'... such a big subject with so many local variations that I'm tired of 'This is how it has to be' type books. Tend to just do what looks right. Nice if you can find a colour photo but that sandy colour with green or black stripes always looks good to me...
     
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    If they had green & black in Tunisia then I expect they'd be the same in Sicily.

    [​IMG]

    TR 631:Under cover of trees, men of a reconnaissance unit of the 78th Division rest by their Bren carriers and scout cars.
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Surely the commonest pattern other than straight green on Commonwealth vehicles.
    Is that mickey mouse ear pattern on those? Can't make it out but that's a favourite design for me.
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    It's the jagged line type, can't remember offical name, shark fin?
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Owen,

    Have you thought about asking on "Maple Leaf Up" ? They have a special Carrier section and there are some first rate rivet-counters there. (Absolutely no disrespect intended, I like to think of myself in that way, in my own rather limited field !)

    MLU FORUM - powered by vBulletin

    If you don't want to sign up on yet another forum, I'll happily post it for you.

    Cheers,

    Rich.
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Cheers Rich, as you are a regular there, I'll let you ask.Thank You.
    MLU is where I met Art Bridge.
    Maybe I should go back and have a shufti again.
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I posted this ages ago (21/3/06) on another thread.Can't remember where I found it though.
    I 56th Div carrier.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/war-italy/2441d1142975521-british-units-involved-salerno-landings-56th-div-carrier-jpg
     
  13. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I posted this ages ago on another thread.Can't remember where I found it though.
    I 56th Div carrier.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/war-italy/2441d1142975521-british-units-involved-salerno-landings-56th-div-carrier-jpg

    Can't have been that long ago.[​IMG]
     
  14. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Cheers Rich, so it is a Mark I.
    I tried to follow thread but IDing them sems a very complex business.
     
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Forgot to update this thread,
    sicily1943 kindly did a Then & Now for me on this post.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/161289-post19.html

    [​IMG]

    See the Div History gets the town name wrong.

    Trecastagni not PedaraStill it shows the markings off well.


    [​IMG]
     
  17. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Von Poop
    Ask Ron or Gerry. :wink:



    Did I hear someone mention my name ?

    Bren Gun Carriers ?........ That's me with mine :p

    Ron
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Ron,
    A great picture of you and your Carrier.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  19. Richard Harrison

    Richard Harrison Senior Member

    It's the jagged line type, can't remember offical name, shark fin?


    that pattern is the caunter pattern. the only easy ways to tell are the mk ones and 3" mortars have no round bar on the top edges of the plating but instead some wood, on the rear pannel there are two square holes above the diff input. the Mk2's had a solid plate, and some manufacturers even had a fully wleded hull rather than rivets

    the 2nd Wilts carrier is a mk1
     
  20. Richard Harrison

    Richard Harrison Senior Member

    here is a good example of caunter pattern Owen, i want to use this one on my mk1 but i doubt 5th Div will have used it, even in Qum

    [​IMG]

    this is also a Mk1 carrier with later mods added (wheel on the glacis plate)
     

Share This Page