Which mark of 5th Div Universal Carrier is this, in Sicily?

My current avatar is from this picture. IWM photo NA 5752



Is this a Mark I or Mark II Universal Carrier?

I read just now that one difference between the two is the tubular hand rail along the sides.
I know MkII had different side skirts but they aren't on this vehicle anyway.
What other differences were there?
What camo scheme did 5th Div's Carriers have in Sicily in 1943?

The formation sign will be a red square I know and the white "Y" Div sign, what other markings should be on them?



Also the IWM caption for this photo says it's Pedara, but Pedara churh looks like this.
Similar but not the same.
http://www.etnasci.it/immagini/paesi-etnei/pedara.jpg


It is actually TRECASTAGNI, which matches up with their War Diary.

http://www.trecastagniweb.it/img/trecastagni_salfio_m.jpg

 

Just sent email now.
In Martin MacIntyre's book on The Wiltshire Regiment he has it as Paterno.
Wrong again!
Just told The Wardrobe too.

 

Carrier-spotting is a nightmare, at Beltring these days we tend to just say 'carrier'
According to Chamberlain & Ellis the big difference between Universal Carriers Mark I & II (except for engine and stowage changes) is the mark II having a waterproof welded hull as opposed to the bolts and rivets of the mark I but even this is inconclusive as other countries manufactured them and seem to have used both styles of construction for their 'Mark II's'.
To illustrate how confusing it is; Quick list of official types of carrier:

Carrier, Universal Mk I (also covers the earlier Bren carriers... dozens of 'em))
Carrier, Universal No.2 Mk I (engine variant)
Carrier, Universal No.2A Mk I (engine variant)
Carrier, Universal No.3 Mk I* (Canadian)
Carrier, Universal No.1 Mk II (welded, stowage, smoke dischargers)
Carrier, Universal No.2 Mk II (engine variant)
Carrier, Universal No.2A Mk II (engine variant)
Carrier, Universal No.3 Mk II* (modified air inlet and engine cover)
Carrier, Universal No.1 Mk III (engine variant)
Carrier, Universal No.2 Mk III (engine variant)
Carrier, Universal No.2A Mk III (engine variant)
Carrier, Universal No.3 Mk III* (Canadian)
8 more MMG variations,
5 more OP Variations,
8 more Mortar carriers,
3 Flame variants
and a whole extra slew of Australian and new Zealand produced variants along with Windsors and T16's... not forgetting countless field modifications.

In short; they all mostly look the sodding same from the kind of angle on your picture.
See why we stick to 'carrier'? :mellow:

Cheers,
Adam.

(well spotted on the church thing.)

 

Knew it wouldn't be straight forward.
What about camo then?
Green & black, just green?
Or so coated in Sicilian dust it didn't matter if it was bright pink ?

 

Ask Ron or Gerry.

I no longer trust any of my camo 'reference'... such a big subject with so many local variations that I'm tired of 'This is how it has to be' type books. Tend to just do what looks right. Nice if you can find a colour photo but that sandy colour with green or black stripes always looks good to me...

 

If they had green & black in Tunisia then I expect they'd be the same in Sicily.



TR 631:Under cover of trees, men of a reconnaissance unit of the 78th Division rest by their Bren carriers and scout cars.

 

Surely the commonest pattern other than straight green on Commonwealth vehicles.
Is that mickey mouse ear pattern on those? Can't make it out but that's a favourite design for me.

 

It's the jagged line type, can't remember offical name, shark fin?

 

Cheers Rich, as you are a regular there, I'll let you ask.Thank You.
MLU is where I met Art Bridge.
Maybe I should go back and have a shufti again.

 

I posted this ages ago (21/3/06) on another thread.Can't remember where I found it though.
I 56th Div carrier.
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/war-italy/2441d1142975521-british-units-involved-salerno-landings-56th-div-carrier-jpg

 

Cheers Rich, so it is a Mark I.
I tried to follow thread but IDing them sems a very complex business.

 

Forgot to update this thread,
sicily1943 kindly did a Then & Now for me on this post.
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/161289-post19.html



See the Div History gets the town name wrong.

Trecastagni not PedaraStill it shows the markings off well.