When research goes wrong !

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Mr Jinks, Mar 5, 2020.

  1. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    That's why you turned out that technical philistine account of the electrical supply industry....obviously possessing very little understanding of the subject.

    You did promise to post your formal work, as you put it, but it is yet to appear..
     
    timuk and Tullybrone like this.
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Thats why I have stopped looking as such or at least posting details as I dont believe there is enough

    There is this tree for him, might be the same one you found
    Rocco Compardo
    1884–1953
    BIRTH 27 SEP 1884 • Casseni, Italy
    DEATH DEC 1953 • Sunderland, Durham, England
    and also

    Ann Buttery Biggs
    1892–1973
    BIRTH 9 APR 1892 • Newark, Nottinghamshire
    DEATH MAR 1973 • Sunderland, Durham, England
    But I am uncertain if this is his wife, I have yet to find corroborating evidence

    TD

    Kyle - any chance someone could check out the 1901 census address, there seems to be quite a number of Italian names there - just as general interest to see if the was an Italian centre in Sunderland
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
    CL1 likes this.
  3. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Any immigration experts out there? Couldnt find anything for Australia so tried New Zealand.
    Immigration
    Stanley William Fortune (Stanley Fortune) Motor Fitter born 18 August 1925 in company of Rita Fortune (Typist) born 20 November 1934 Shaw Saville Line SS Southern Cross destination Aukland New Zealand 4th March 1959.
    Former H/A 89 Burton Road,Brixton,London

    New Zealand Census 1963
    52 Urlich Avenue,Melville , New Zealand
    Occupants
    Stanley William Fortune (Mechanic)
    Rita Joan Fortune (Married)

    Where do I look for more?

    Kyle
     
    JimHerriot, CL1 and timuk like this.
  4. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    TD ,

    Both have the same reference /page number ? 10 A 1331
    ONS_M19112AZ-0740 ann biggs.jpg
    Sunderland apparently had a huge Italian population most who were ice cream sales/manufacturers

    Kyle
     
    JimHerriot and CL1 like this.
  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    His marriage cert says he married an Ann B Biggs, from this we do not know if the middle 'B' stands for Buttery, maybe the certificate would state that, but I am only going on what someone else says is correct, it may or may not be.

    As I mentioned earlier if it is Ann Buttery Biggs then how/why was she born in Nottingham and married in Sunderland in the space of approx 20 years during this time in history when people didnt move that far from home, just more often moving into the nearest large town for industrial workforce

    This is where errors start accruing so everything here needs to laden with 'possible', 'maybe', 'could', 'needs verifying'

    TD
     
    JimHerriot and CL1 like this.
  6. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Okay ,understand :) I thought you meant you were not sure Rocco actually married Ann B Biggs , The obituaries simply refer to her as Ann.


    Just a little more on my `New Zealand ` Stanley William Fortune just trying something out see how far I get :)

    Stanley William Fortune b 18th Aug 1925 married Rita Joan Buckley b 20 Nov 1934 at Lambeth in 1956

    The pair listed as Stanley William Fortune (Stanley Fortune) Motor Fitter in company of Rita Fortune (Typist) boarded the Saville Line ship SS Southern Cross destination Auckland New Zealand on the 4th March 1959. Former H/A 89 Burton Road,Brixton,London

    New Zealand Electoral Roll 1963
    52 Urlich Avenue,Melville , New Zealand Occupants Stanley William Fortune (Mechanic) Rita Joan Fortune (Married)
    New Zealand Electoral Roll 1969
    58 Urlich Avenue. Occupants Rita Joan Fortune
    New Zealand Electoral Roll 1981
    58 Urlich Avenue, Occupants Rita Joan Fortune (Civil Servant) Keith Fortune (Unemployed)

    Stanley William Fortune present in 1963 but not in 1969 then in 1981 theres a Keith Fortune (Is Keith a son ????)

    Kyle
     
    CL1 likes this.
  7. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    Re this ancestry tree:

    brian fortune
    1925–2020
    BIRTH 18 AUG 1925
    DEATH 2020 • Australia

    Started by
    craig fortune
    Joined 28 Feb 2020
    Last signed in Last week

    You know they say "nothing ventured nothing gained" I've just sent a quick ancestry pm to the owner of this tree to advise of the UK shipping departure of Stanley William & Rita Joan Fortune to NZ in 1959, just incase he does not have access to UK records on his ancestry account.

    And of course mentioning that Stanley William & the Brian on his tree have the same dob.

    I'm not expecting a reply as he may be inundated with them.
     
    JimHerriot, CL1 and Mr Jinks like this.
  8. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Encouraging news, (I`m being conservative :) )

    Thanks

    Kyle
     
  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Well done you lot
    patience you have
    patience I dont have

    Great work rattling through it.
     
    Mr Jinks likes this.
  10. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    I have to agree with your assessment Kyle

    What may have started with the most noble of intentions and an innocent mistake, has now fundamentally changed. Once the correct facts were known and the error discovered, there was a duty of disclosure on the part of those responsible. To knowingly proceed now calls into question the true motivation of the organizers and can be described as deliberate deception.
    The attendees should be told the truth, period. I'm sure that many would attend the service for Brian Stanley William Fortune in any event, as an act of human respect.
     
  11. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    You remind me, the number of times I've heard 'family accounts' of soldiers fleeing a charge in one force to join up with another under an assumed name is surprisingly large. The charge is usually striking an officer (the equivalent of claiming to be a workaholic or a perfectionist in a job interview), the first force is usually the army and the second is usually the navy or merchant navy. Hence, said relative can 'pull off the double' and be at some famous battle or event despite a more pedestrian (as they view it) service record.

    While I am quite prepared to believe that such things happened--and happened multiple times--it has to be said it's a less than likely occurrence.

    Sadly, many families believe what they want to believe, and if the paperwork suggests otherwise, well, either the paperwork was recorded incorrectly or another family tale is remembered that magically smoothes out the stubborn wrinkles.

    Mr Jinks has, in fact, given us two fine examples of research in his opening post: the first slapdash and worthless; the second, from Jim Verrieres, thorough and well-documented. I understand entirely why this pantomime that is being conducted doesn't sit well with him; if we're going to accept less that the truth for convenience (or worse glory), then what on earth is the point in all this research people do? It has to be rock-solid.

    I've got three labels for men listed with my grandfather's battalion: possible / probable / definite - and there's a lot of cross-referencing before you get into the third.

    I can only imagine what SAS researchers have to endure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
    Mr Jinks, travers1940 and JimHerriot like this.
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    They are listening.
    This is the reply to one of my links to this thread.
    Ipswich RSL Sub Branch Inc

    2020-03-08 09.01.33.png

    I can't find my other posts on there but someoneelse has also linked to this thread.
    Edit. Looks like most of my posts have gone as well as those saying he was a 6 DLI pow.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Again before we go jumping the gun

    Birth records - 1925 +/- 2 years

    Stanley Fortune Oct 1926 Oct-Nov-Dec Manchester North Lancashire

    Stanley W Fortune Jan 1926 Jan-Feb-Mar Hartlepool Durham


    England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
    Name: Stanley William Fortune
    Death Age: 79
    Birth Date: 2 Jan 1926
    Registration Date: Feb 2005
    Registration district: Stockton
    Inferred County: Durham
    Register Number: C20
    District and Subdistrict: 350/1C
    Entry Number: 136


    But then we have
    Name: Mr Stanley Fortune
    Gender: Male
    Age: 74
    Birth Date: 15 Dec 1926
    Last Residence: Manchester, Lancashire, England
    Postal Code District: M24
    Death Date: 1 Aug 2000


    This then comes along:
    Stanley W Fortune in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
    Name: Stanley W Fortune
    Registration Date: Oct 1956
    [Nov 1956]
    [Dec 1956]
    Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
    Registration district: Lambeth
    Inferred County: London
    Spouse: Rita J Buckley
    Volume Number: 5c
    Page Number: 2341

    So is this the same Stanley W Fortune born 2 Jan 1926, who died in Stockton (Durham) in 2005


    Cannot find a shipping passenger list for them although by 1959 they could have flown from UK to New Zealand/Australia - on Ancestry there is a result I cannot access perhaps one of out antipodean members could help out

    New Zealand, Electoral Rolls, 1853-1981
    Stanley William Fortune


    More confusion
    TD
     
  14. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    TD - Already found by Kyle but here's a copy. Shaw Savill Line "Southern Cross" departing Southampton for Auckland, NZ, 4 Mar 59.
    upload_2020-3-8_12-18-42.png

    Tim
     
    Mr Jinks likes this.
  15. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Tim beat me to it :)

    TD,

    No. This is my New Zealand guy he is the one on the ship with Rita his date of birth on the ships list is 18th Aug 1925 (Post #66) I have contacted Jim to send me the list which I will edit in here . I have also asked for the voters papers.

    Kyle
     
  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Ah yes cheers guys - found it now - not sure why it didnt come up before but sometimes thats the way it goes, and always better to have more heads on the search.

    By coincidence I found a rather bizarre result, on the same ship was a shipwright from Sunderland :omg::huh:, our true man was Burton Fortune was he not??

    Name: Stanley Burton
    Gender: Male
    Departure Date: 4 Mar 1959
    Port of Departure: Southampton, England
    Destination Port: Auckland, New Zealand
    Ship Name: Southern Cross
    Search Ship Database: Search for the Southern Cross in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
    Shipping Line: Shaw Savill Line
    Master: W H Edmead


    Still cant find a birth for Stanley Fortune in Aug 1925, perhaps other databases have it

    TD
     
    Mr Jinks likes this.
  17. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Just told Jim (Verrieres) the updates he never got any replies so he is pleased that the doubt had been cast however there appears to have been another assumption made. I let him know of my New Zealand thoughts and TDs efforts to find a record of the date of birth which have been unsuccesful up to this point, I will only complicate things further if I ramble so heres Jims original reply..

    Kyle, Many thanks to you and all at WW2talk for pushing this at what really was the `eleventh hour` Please pass on my thanks to all who contributed to the debate and those who took the time to challenge their findings on Facebook. Thank you.
    The post where they believe the record belonged to Brian Stanley William Fortune`s brother is not correct but it gives them a way out I suppose.
    Burton Fortune`s parents were Henry and Florence May Fortune nee Meldrum, They were married at St Ignatius Church in Hendon ,Sunderland on the 22nd September 1900. Florence was 20-21 years of age. In 1901 their first child was born and christened/babtized Henry Fortune (jnr) Florence Fortune (Jnr) 1902, John Thomas Fortune 1905,Ellen Fortune 1907,Hanna Isabella Fortune 1909, George Fortune 1911, and of course Burton Fortune (DLI) On the 9th August 1914 their mother Florence May Meldrum died in Sunderland still aged only 34 years. So Brian Stanley William Fortune is certainly not a brother .
    I too have looked for a `Fortune` born in August 1925 and could not find one however here`s one to think about Henry Fortune (Jnr) ,Burton Fortune`s elder brother I believe married a Catherine Hedger in 1924 , In 1925 there is a record of their first child `Henry Fortune` being born apart from the record of his birth I can find nothing more? Certainly not a brother though.
    Thanks again/ Jim
    fortune no 2.jpeg

    Kyle
     
    CL1, Tricky Dicky and timuk like this.
  18. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Mr Jinks likes this.
  19. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Someone on there said 300 to 400 people turned up to the funeral.
    RIP Mr Fortune.

    Edit . Photo added.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
    Mr Jinks and JimHerriot like this.
  20. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Excellent turn out for Mr Fortune report and pictures here;-

    World War II veteran who died alone with no next of kin farewelled by strangers in Brisbane | Daily Mail Online

    Could have done without this comment though (speculation and a made up relationship)
    He`s gone now and I hope he rests in peace.

    :poppy: RiP Brian Stanley William Fortune :poppy:

    Kyle
     
    Harry Ree, CL1, Tony56 and 3 others like this.

Share This Page