When research goes wrong !

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Mr Jinks, Mar 5, 2020.

  1. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    I just can't understand how the folks propagating this "history" for the deceased failed to do the math.

    Died aged 94 (birth certificate? Passport? They must have had some document at hand that let them give his age at death as 94) in 2020.

    94 - 2020 = 1926 (as his year of birth)

    How did this pass muster in the eyes of the "researchers"?

    They must have been issued the abacus with the missing beads.

    Kind regards, always,

  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    They just failed - nothing more, nothing less

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  3. 8RB

    8RB Well-Known Member

    Isn't this just a piece of fake fake news...?
  4. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Profound apologies TD if my comments are overly harsh (fuelled by two pints of the black stuff and too much forehead slapping for my own good).

    Neck truly reeled in, and when the third pint's disappeared I'll be asleep!

    Kind regards, always,

  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member


    I dont have a problem with yourself

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  6. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Hi TD,

    I dont think the old guy has actually mentioned the DLI. I think thats also an assumption based on the fact that there is only one `B.Fortune` in all the PoW records online . I have had an update from Jim ;-

    Good Morning Kyle,
    Just an update bit of a late night,early morning because I told the Australians I would be available until 2.00am (about 3pm Aussie time?) Waste of time still no official contact although there has been contact from various residents in Queensland alerting me to the supposed DLI connection. I don`t think anyone believes me when I tell them it`s wrong ,at least they havent replied back to me?
    Moving on the original research was conducted by a member of The Ipswich (Queensland)Returned and Services League of Australia !
    I contacted them prior to contacting ABC ( ABC promptly replied via Anna ) but nothing came back. I do not use Facebook but I am told that the RSL thanked everyone who shared, commented,researched and contacted them. The National media picked up on their release and apparently very quickly their story was out there. Ipswich First (news) published another article today (6th March 2020) with the same misleading information ,sadly.
    The RSL branch later announced it would be closed from Friday and wished everyone a good weekend. There has also apparently been an announcement by the RSL that their Email system is down and they are not receiving emails ?? Thats about it ,the link to the latest story if it is of interest is here;-

    Community rallies for late WWII veteran - Ipswich First

    You will notice a comments box at the bottom can I ask you, Kyle to put a note in this if you believe their research wrong ? Anyone else you know and believes this needs addressing before Mondays funeral may wish to add something? Time has almost run out, Cheers Jim.

    Comment added awaiting moderation.

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  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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  8. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Thank you Owen , Hopefully they act before Monday.

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  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    in the link the organiser bloke appears to be in his fifties and again would he not think of his birth date and the date of Dunkirk
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  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    At least one chap thought it odd.
    I did 'Like' his post.
    Hidden his name as he might not like me putting it on here.
    Comment on fb.png
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  11. Skoyen89

    Skoyen89 Senior Member

    Mr Jinks asks what do we think.....

    A veteran dies without any known family and the local Australian veteran's group try to do the right thing by him - they put out a request on social media to ensure the vicar isn't the only person there when he is buried. They try some research as little is known about him. Arguably they don't find the correct person based on the little they know about him. They are trying to do it from Australia in a few days.

    And on here we have a succession of sneering posts that suggests they are 'idiots', 'gimbos who get caught up on social media (who) dont even think, they just want to be liked by the binary or seen as a do gooder' and 'lack common sense'. I know a number of researchers who are regulars on this forum and also post on Facebook - do they suddenly become 'gimbos', 'idiots' and 'just want to be liked' when they post on there?

    So what do I think? That some of the people who have posted on this thread need to take a long, hard look at their behaviour and attitudes because their behaviour is on a par with the worst seen on Facebook and social media.
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I think it's great that so many people want to pay their respects to an old soldier.
    Kudos to those that attend.

    It would be nice if they didn't confuse him with another soldier with the same surname.
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  13. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Hello Skoyen89,

    As you posted quoting my `What do you think` I am answering even though I do not find in any of my posts on the subject any derogatory remarks on anyone on or off Facebook ? My question really was is it acceptable for a man to be buried with a false record ? Simple?
    The errors have been pointed out theres no `Arguably` about it, the record attached is not that of Brian Stanley William Fortune the evidence has been provided yet on Monday Brian Stanley William Fortune will be cremated with those present convinced he was a Dunkirk veteran PoW and DL Infantryman which he was neither ?

    What do you think on that Skoyen89 ? Is it acceptable to continue, to continue the myth when the facts are there in front of them ?
    The thread was started to present the facts not to comment on members thoughts on Facebook and social media,these are the posters personal views ,views which become very emmotive due to the fact that an old man has been incorrectly labelled with the record of another man.
    Are you happy that Brian Stanley William Fortune will be cremated on Monday with a false past/history?

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  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I think on here it has been reported on several occasions where veterans have died in the UK (maybe elsewhere cant remember) and due to be buried, then locals including media have stepped in and raised the issue, so that RBL etc and others can attend. However they have stated he/she was a veteran of WW2, thats it - I dont recall that they went into a full service record. All they needed to do was state he was a WW2 veteran without family and it would be good if people attended his funeral/cremation

    Thats purely my opinion

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  15. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Yep I dont suffer fools having been one myself
    Guilty as charged
    Anyone with half an ounce would have worked it out based on his age

    As stated poor mans memory blighted by a bunch of twonks
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  16. Skoyen89

    Skoyen89 Senior Member

    Hi Kyle

    The only reason I mention your original post was because you asked the question at the end of it. As you say you didn't slag off the well-meaning people trying to ensure the man was remembered.

    As some have said we have all made such mistakes in research and discovered them in time when new info is found. Owen puts it really well and in measured terms:

    'I think it's great that so many people want to pay their respects to an old soldier.
    Kudos to those that attend.
    It would be nice if they didn't confuse him with another soldier with the same surname.'

    I do believe there is an 'arguably' about it as I haven't seen any evidence of what happened to Burton Fortune (nothing on the Death Index up to 2007 in FMP, Ancestry or FreeBMD) and no sign of Brian Stanley William Fortune at all. He seems a bit of a mystery and I think we need to take everything we think we know about him (age for example) as questionable. But I accept you may feel it is more conclusive.

    But where I disagree is that I think you are being too charitable to some of the posters on this thread who used this as an opportunity to air their catch-all views on social media, Facebook and its users - including the people in Australia trying to organise attendance at the funeral. The fact that somebody made an honest mistake doesn't justify their bile.
  17. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Just checked Ancestry family trees and

    brian fortune
    BIRTH 18 AUG 1925
    DEATH 2020 • Australia

    Started by
    craig fortune
    Joined 28 Feb 2020
    Last signed in Last week

    General - a quick check for Brian Fortune born in UK 1924 +/- 10 years results in:
    Brian Fortune Jan 1931 Jan-Feb-Mar Sheffield South Yorkshire

    Brian A Fortune Jul 1934 Jul-Aug-Sep Bristol Avon

    Brian H Fortune Apr 1934 Apr-May-Jun South Shields Tyne & Wear

    Brian E Fortune Apr 1934 Apr-May-Jun Woolwich London

    So a simple birth check should have raised alarm bells

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  18. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Hello Skoyen89,

    Thank you for coming back to answer my post and in a way you have by agreeing with Owen. Thank you. However you say I may be too charitable with other posters who used this opportunity on this thread to air their views on social media ? If this is true have you not used this opportunity to air your views on them ? Its easily done. Sorry if I am also taking this off topic

    I will now resume with Brian Stanley William Fortune (Jim stated) that he had no information on this man ,none at all apart from he was as is (stated in the article) too young to have been at Dunkirk? (Fact)

    The assumptions of the Australian researcher were made after consulting a well publicised web site, (Not to be mentioned here) There paperwork is shown in the article. From the paperwork they found a name B Fortune which they assumed was Brian it was not.

    The B.Fortune was Burton Fortune born on 20 Feb 1913 (Fact there is records of this,Jim) The army number given was 4447867 a number issued in 1929 (Fact this can be checked in Army Form B 358 enlistment book, Durham Light Infantry, no. 13, nos. 4447001 - 4448000, 21 June 1928 - 19 February 1930 it is held in the Durham Records Office Ref D/DLI 15/1/13 this has been checked ,Jim)
    Burton Fortune has at least two family trees on Ancestry (Fact checked Jims info myself) True there is no death details for Burton Fortune (I cannot find then anyway)

    Brian Stanley William Fortune who died would have been two or three years old when Burton Fortune enlisted in 1929. There are three news articles featuring Burton Fortune (not B Fortune) Two from the Sunderland Echo and Shipping Gazette July and August 1940 and one from the Newcastle Chronicle each give the name Burton Fortune and all have the home address of 28 South Street Sunderland. Another News article exists with a grainy photograph from 1942-43 showing two Sunderland men in a PoW camp one is named as Burton Fortune . Post War there is a news article on a new ressettlement scheme for returning PoWs amongst the first batch is Burton Fortune of Sunderland .

    Burton Fortune married Rose Compardo in 1938 in Sunderland the family home was 28 South Street ,Sunderland (as news articles and 1939 register ,Jim) There is held a German PoW card at Kew for Pte Burton Fortune 6th DLI captured at Arras he has given an earlier year of birth to the Germans(Fact Jim Ref WO 416/125/350.)

    So in summary there is no `argubility` that the record of Burton Fortune has been attached to Brian Stanley William Fortune . If Burton Fortune had been Brian Fortune he would have been 107 years old not 94 as stated in the articles. One of the online reports state he told hospital nurses he preferred to be called `Stan` (middle name) Are the two related ?

  19. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Just to add in another piece of evidence, here's B. Fortune DLI service no.4447867 on the Imperial POWs list in Germany WO 392/1. POW camp 20A.


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  20. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Thank you Vitellino and to add further here are the pages from the news publications mentioned in post #38 just received;-


    Attached Files:

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