what was wrong with the Tommy round mag?

Basically says it, why with the clockwork 50 round magazine not liked?

Ive heard it was noisy (though I doubt a tommy gun is generally that quiet) and it didnt fit very well, or was expensive to make.

Kev

 

I am no expert but I think when you are in the infantry and have to carry all reserve Magazines with you, carrying the drum rounds would be a lot heavier than the normal vertical magazine, plus not being as easy to carry in pouches.

Perhaps a little different if you were mechanised and didn't have to hump everything by yourself!

I am sure that there are experts out there just waiting to tell you their thoughts!

Tom

 

The Thompson was officially thought of as a 'Gangster Gun' although designed as a close-quarter weapon for use in trench fighting!

I would think that the preference for stick magazines - 20 & 30 rounds - would stem from the fact that they were easier to re-load, easier to carry and made the weapon less cumbersome when used in battle.

Drum magazines on the other hand were complicated to take apart and put together again, requiring a drum spring to be wound a certain number of 'clicks' depending on the number of rounds inserted in it and also depending if it was to be used immediately or not.

I can just see a squaddie doing that under fire

 

SouthWestPacificVet (Jack) over at WW2f.com stated that it was noisy when not in use (it made a lot of noise when you were trying move quietly) and it was heavy. He said that he found it better to tape two 30 round magazines together.

 

I think Duncan has hit the nail on the head. The drum magazines were hardly user friendly to load. Imagine trying to reload one on a Commando raid in the pitch dark under fire!. A stick mag is much easier to carry and can be reloaded by touch.

There is a picture that gives a good idea of the potential problem in Mark Khan's excellent article in Issue 17 of Britain at War magazine.

Regards
TonyE

 

SouthWestPacificVet (Jack) over at WW2f.com stated that it was noisy when not in use (it made a lot of noise when you were trying move quietly) and it was heavy. He said that he found it better to tape two 30 round magazines together.

So taping magazines together ins´t a recent tactical idea? I thought it was first used in ´Nam or another 60´s war.

 

I found the Tommy gun a beautiful weapon but, with it's ammuntion, very heavy to carry when in full kit. Only ever used a stick mag. A.C.

 

Wouldn't the bean counters have thrown their hands up in horror at the thought of 50 rounds being fired at a time!!!!

 

Some good answers there. I cant accept the oft quote noise issue.

Kev

 

Looking at the loading procedure for the drum mag they would have been more than happy if it had been used I think

Checking some detail in Ian V Hogg and John Weeks book 'Military Small Arms of the 20 century' it says that when demand for the Thompson increased in 1939/41 it was realised that the original design was not best suited to mass production. The Savage Arms Co. which was making the gun under contact re-designed the mechanism and in spite of bitter objection from Auto Ordinance, the patent owners, the US Army over-rode the objections and insisted on the revised design to speed manufacture. Part of this was to drop the drum mag for the box mags.

As a point of interest regarding the tapeing of mags, in 1942 High Standard Mfg Co. and Marlin Firearms Co in the US produced a 9 x 19mm Parabellum sub-machine gun - UDM42 which had 20 round box mags that could be joined together in 2's. They were mostly used by OSS and the Dutch.

It is interesting to note that the Russians main sub-machine gun of the war was the 7.62 x 25mm PPSh-41 which had both a 35 round box mag or a 71 round Suomi drum ( from the Finnish 9mm Suomi Model 31 ). It was easy to make, easy to strip and most of them were only capable of automatic fire. About 5 million were built between 1941 & 1945

 

As a point of interest regarding the tapeing of mags, in 1942 High Standard Mfg Co. and Marlin Firearms Co in the US produced a 9 x 19mm Parabellum sub-machine gun - UDM42 which had 20 round box mags that could be joined together in 2's. They were mostly used by OSS and the Dutch.



I think the Marlin is deserving of a thread its it own right.

Kev

 

Some good answers there. I cant accept the oft quote noise issue.

Kev

Actually, I have a Thompson with both drum and stick mags--- The drums do rattle a lot as you move. The main problem though seems to have been cost and manufacturing-- Sticks were much cheaper and more reliable, not to mention much easier to make.

 

Actually, I have a Thompson with both drum and stick mags--- The drums do rattle a lot as you move. The main problem though seems to have been cost and manufacturing-- Sticks were much cheaper and more reliable, not to mention much easier to make.

Doc, all,

Im thinking this may have something to do with it, just the general reasons that are oft quoted never say this. Not really into myth busting but I think there is more to this than the normal quoted reasons.

Is it safe to say that,the 30 round staright mag wasnt as reliable as the 20 round magazine, Tommy mags should never be completly filled as more likely to jam?

Thanks for your input doc, very interesting.

Kev
I cant help thinknig that thr 50 round drum is a hell of a lot more usefull that 20/30 stick in most applications the gun would be used in, Im guess close range suppressive fire, building/trench clearing, close range flanking manouvers. The rate of fire of the gun means the 20 round mag is exhausted in around 2-3 seconds. Not much time??

 

I cant help thinknig that thr 50 round drum is a hell of a lot more usefull that 20/30 stick in most applications the gun would be used in, Im guess close range suppressive fire, building/trench clearing, close range flanking manouvers. The rate of fire of the gun means the 20 round mag is exhausted in around 2-3 seconds. Not much time??

Bearing in mind that stick mags would be easier to carry and more could be carried, easier and quicker to load to the weapon, quieter when moving and more compact making the weapon easier to aim and fire I do not think that a drum mag would enter my thoughts. Building clearing is not a one man job and demands control of ammo.
The original Thompson M1928A1 was designed with a delayed blowback Blish system. The later M1 & M1A1 were both bolowback. Both models could give a cyclic rate of 700rds/min.

The British concentration on the conservation of ammunition shows from the early days of the magazine rifle which was fitted with a magazine cut off. This allowed the infantry man to load and fire single rounds while keeping a magazine (10 rounds) available for volley fire etc. When the SLR (FN-FAL) or 7.62mm Rifle L1A1 was introduced to the army it, unlike other armies, did not have a facility for shooting bursts. The current weapon ( and I hated the thing from the moment it was issued to me!) The L85A1 in 5.56mm seems to have a built in ammunition control - but that is another story!

 

So taping magazines together ins´t a recent tactical idea? I thought it was first used in ´Nam or another 60´s war.

Half way down this page you'll see the Aussies worked on a two magazine operation. I have also read that one Aussie later worked a way for a triple.

Further down you will see other types of magazines they worked on after some experience in actual combat.

Owen Machine Carbine (OMC) (Owen Sub-machine Gun)

 

Owen. Thanks for the welcome. When I joined my regiment in Abbottabad we trained with a Tommy gun for a some time and delighted in the quality of its design. However it was very heavy and I suspected that it might be prone to stoppages in rough conditions. I'd seen one when in the Home Guard but ammo was in such short supply we weren't allowed to fire it.

 

My father was in the Home Guard and they recieved Thompsons. When they arrived each one was in its own varnished box with spares and cleaning tools.

Other weapons with drum magazines.

The 20mm Oerlikon

When I reloaded Oerlikon magazines there were five different types of ammunition, which had to be greased, plus the drill round made six. There was a tool used to charge the spring. As you put each round in you turned it a click till it was full, 60 rounds. Then added two more clicks on the spring. You had to be carefull the rounds didnt topple over when loading the magazines.
A pound per round plus two. 62.

Ammunition

Drill, HE, HEI ,HEIT, SAPHEI & SAPHEIT

Peter

 

Kev, I have never tried a 20 round mag, but I use 30 rounders fully loaded and have never had a problem. I have heard the arguments that the 20 rounders were more reliable, but I hear the same about the 20 round and larger Uzi magazines--- can't comment from experience.

 

Half way down this page you'll see the Aussies worked on a two magazine operation. I have also read that one Aussie later worked a way for a triple.

Further down you will see other types of magazines they worked on after some experience in actual combat.

Owen Machine Carbine (OMC) (Owen Sub-machine Gun)

Thanks for the very interesting info.