What tank is this?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by pietvanbeurdenjr, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. pietvanbeurdenjr

    pietvanbeurdenjr Junior Member

  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    I go along with Adam's call as it does to me look like an M4A1

    Regards
    Tom
     
  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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  4. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    Guys

    It is what we Brits call a Hybrid M4 and our friends across the pond call a composite M4; it is an M4 with a mainly welded hull, but with a cast glacis plate. Normal 75mm gun by the look of it.

    Chris
     
  5. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Guys

    It is what we Brits call a Hybrid M4 and our friends across the pond call a composite M4; it is an M4 with a mainly welded hull, but with a cast glacis plate. Normal 75mm gun by the look of it.

    Chris

    Good job. I believe you're right. I couldn't find a real picture of one but found this model box painting

    Dave
     

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  6. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    Am I seeing a different tank to the rest of you? I'm with Owen, it is clearly a welded hull Sherman - with small hull hatches and a low bustle turret with 75mm gun in an M34A1 mount, so very conventional. There is not enough detail on show to go further apart from to say the British mudguards have been removed which was common - they may be made into stowage bins on the rear. It could therefore be an M4, M4A4 or possibly an M4A2.

    What unit was your Dad in? The vehicle returns published by Peter Brown would give an indication of the predominant types in the Brigade -

    And I am sorry to say - yes you did use the wrong model, you have used a late version with a steeper angled glacis which made the driving compartment more effective, this modification is sometimes refered to as 'big hatch' by Shermanoholics. It is rare in British use.

    Keith
     
  7. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  8. Jen'sHusband

    Jen'sHusband Punchbag

    As Chris has said it's a Sherman I Hybrid. They were equipped with 75mm guns and were one of three marks of Sherman used for conversion to Firefly standard (though this one is a conventional 75 tank).
     

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  9. pietvanbeurdenjr

    pietvanbeurdenjr Junior Member

  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    It look's kind of correct? Doesn't it.
    No , for reasons already stated.
    :p
     
  11. Jen'sHusband

    Jen'sHusband Punchbag

    Yeah, that's the one. Well, the hull is, anyway. It's a composite (hybrid) hull.
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    So if it a composite where are the straight lines I marked on the other image?
    red on this pic, where a composite has curved lines, in yellow.
     

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  13. Jen'sHusband

    Jen'sHusband Punchbag

    It's welded diagonally across the glacis plate when viewed from the side. The straight line is there. I'm not sure how you can't see it's a Hybrid :confused:
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    does this help explain why I dont think it's a hybrid.
    nothing matches, shape, angles, distance of lifting eye etc etc
     

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  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Though I first mooted composite (even though terribly drunk at the time), I can see entirely what O's getting at:
    [​IMG]
    If that red line does represent a slab, and he's sitting on a mudguard or box on a mudguard, then M4a4 or similar might win out.

    In all honesty, I don't think the picture's clear enough, or from a useful enough angle to easily ID with real certainty from what we can see of the Glacis, or make out under all that gear. I still suspect it's cast, from an overall 'impression' of shape & fittings, but remain open-minded.

    Any chance of a sharper scan, Piet?
     
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    shed loads of pics on IDing Shermans.
    Sherman minutia homepage

    Just having fun drawing a blobman onto 2 versions of the Sherman.
    1 is an Baldwin built M4 , the other a hybrid.
    There are so many variations of Sherman I now have a headache looking at them.
     

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  17. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    I am sure I am not the only one confused by this discussion!
    Great picture from the link Owen added attached.
    Text with the photo:

    M4(75) composite, a.k.a. M4(75) hybrid. This tank has a cast hull front identical to the M4A1(75), but the rear is welded, identical to the M4(75).
    This particular example has large hatches and no hull antenna bracket (photo courtesy of "Nevada Tumbleweed").

    The M4 composite was developed, because casting process was faster & more cost effective, since it eliminated the need for a lot welding. At one point early on, converting all the factories to the manufacture of cast hulls Shermans was contemplated, but there was simply not enough foundry capacity. The cast front end was dreamed up by Chrysler, & was thought to be a partial solution, since the front is where a good deal of the welding man-hours were spent. The front casting was not as enormous as the entire cast hull, so, it could be produced by a smaller capacity foundry (Joe DeMarco).
     

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  18. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    I am sure I am not the only one confused by this discussion!
    Great picture from the link Owen added attached.
    Text with the photo:

    M4(75) composite, a.k.a. M4(75) hybrid. This tank has a cast hull front identical to the M4A1(75), but the rear is welded, identical to the M4(75).
    This particular example has large hatches and no hull antenna bracket (photo courtesy of "Nevada Tumbleweed").

    The M4 composite was developed, because casting process was faster & more cost effective, since it eliminated the need for a lot welding. At one point early on, converting all the factories to the manufacture of cast hulls Shermans was contemplated, but there was simply not enough foundry capacity. The cast front end was dreamed up by Chrysler, & was thought to be a partial solution, since the front is where a good deal of the welding man-hours were spent. The front casting was not as enormous as the entire cast hull, so, it could be produced by a smaller capacity foundry (Joe DeMarco).



    Mike,

    Absolutely,

    I recently bought three books on the subject of Sherman tanks and having read them it is still a confusing picture with so many variations and adaptions being made.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  19. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Seems to me that the hybrid is essentially a welded hull except with a cast glacis welded to the front instead of a welded glacis. The glacis seam looks the same on both to me. ( The straight line in the pictures running from lower left to upper right)

    My vote is still with Adam's ID. Hybrid. :)
     
  20. white1

    white1 Discharged

    If it helps pls post a picture on the Facebook page 'Tank Lovers' as they love topics like this and there are many people with a stunning knowledge of tanks on there to help.!!
     

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