Thanks everyone for all your help so far - you've saved me a lot of hard work. I'll report back if I get any further information or clarification once I've spoken with the grandson next week. I'll also be able to check the rolls at the regimental museum if necessary. The 10654 John Pearce is indeed a mystery man, but hopefully he is just an unlikely coincidence.
Hi, Interesting thread. I can't offer any great insight to solve the mystery but would just like to flag up that dates/locations on MIC's have been known to be wrong. MIC completed incorrectly by a busy clerk? One of my great uncles MIC show he first went to France June 1915 but there is evidence that he went there in January 1915 and was wounded shortly afterwards. Would the Times casualty list be of any help in confirming a casualty location/approximate date. Steve Y
Ah! A lateral thinker! Thanks for that suggestion, it might be the answer.... ... or an MIC for 10654 (whenever i write that I can't help but hear "24601 Jean Valjean"!) would at least show there WERE 2 men! I thought this would show that we have the skills and knowledge here to help, but not cope with doppelgangers!!
Sorry to come back to this before I’ve got any further firm information, but I’ve just noticed that John Pearce’s name is spelt differently on the documents posted by Tricky Dicky (Post 28). On the attestation form, he is referred to as Pearce and signs himself Pearce. But on the medical history form, his name is spelt Pierce. The note from the Infantry Record office also calls him Pierce, as does the typed reply from the South Lancs depot at Warrington. Is this significant, or just a bureaucratic cock-up?
Hi tmac Interesting - I hadn't seen that. So I started looking for a John Pierce (South Lancs) and came across this fellow: Name: John Pierce Gender: Male Birth Date: abt 1885 Enlistment Age: 29 Document Year: 1914 Residence Place: 23 Plea?? Wid?? (23 ?Mount Pleasant, Widnes) Regimental Number: 11115 Regiment Name: So Lan?? (South Lancs) Number of Images: 12 Form Title: Short Service Attestation Note that his documents are part burnt, so its difficult to read everything on them I note from his forms that he enlisted in Warrington, but the most interesting aspect was looking through his service record I came across 2 letters attached below which you might find useful to read TD edited to add I guess Pearce & Pierce if spoken it would depend on the writer as to how they spell it. Even seeing it written it is difficult sometimes to see the difference between the 'i' and the 'e' especially with the more flowery type handwriting of that era. So we have another name and also another service number that will make a trip to the Regimental archives even more interesting.
Excellent find, but it certainly complicates thing even more. There seems to have been some mix-up between Pearce and Pierce in the regimental records - our old friend 10654 is referred to on the burnt page. I wonder if John PIERCE was the man who was wounded in Gallipoli. When he rejoined his regiment after sick leave, did the records office get him confused with the discharged John PEARCE? Any ideas welcome.
Having tried to think this through, there has to be AT LEAST two men. We have the 3230 chap who is almost certainly tmac's man. He's married to Martha Lightfoot and died in France. The confusion is 10654 who was discharged shortly after enlisting die to medical grounds. We only have his Service Papers, but he seems also to have the same wife and daughters, so it COULD be tmac's John Pearce first attempt. TD found another set of burnt papers which specifically has 2 letters, the first on the unburnt fragment refers to 10654 BUT also refers to 11115 as John PIERCE. As 10654 never made it Overseas, there is no Medal Index Card for that number.... BUT there is one for Private 11115 John PIERCE who arrived in the Balkans (Gallipoli) on 1st July 1915 with 6th Bn South Lancs and was discharged 14 December 1918 Para 392 25a. So my theory is that tmacs PEARCE tried to enlist but was rejected as 10654 and, knowing what the reason was (we don't!) managed to pass when enlisting again as 3230/201288 and was sent to France. In the meantime, John PIERCE rocks up and is enlisted as 11115 is sent to Gallipoli and is wounded. When he returns from Sick Furlough, PIERCE 11115 is confused with PEARCE 10654 who the Records Office have as Discharged! That accounts for the reference by the Major to correct his Service number (presumably on his leave Pass) from 10654 to 11115, without presumably realising (as we all missed until tmac pointed it out) that 11115 was PIERCE and not PEARCE....... Anyone care to pick holes in what might be the answer? EDIT TO ADD: 11115 has surviving Service records. He was JAMES PIERCE from Widnes, not Warrington. 11115 was wounded in Gallipoli and on return was posted to 7th Bn in France, wounded again and then released in 1816 for Munitions work at a Company with an address at Deacons Yard, Widnes, and finally demobilised 392 xxva in 1918.....
Thanks for an excellent rundown of what probably happened, Kevin - I was coming round to thinking something like that. I am now almost certain that 10654 was the same John Pearce in whom I am interested. A different man with the same name, wife, etc, would be too big a coincidence. I spoke again to his grandson today, but unfortunately he does not have any original documents which might have helped clarify things. However, he did confirm that his grandparents had lived in Ayden's Yard, Warrington (as shown on the 1911 census). On the 1914 attestation, John Pearce's address is given as 4, Gandys Road, Warrington. This is almost certainly a misnomer for Gandy Street or Gandy's Court, Warrington, which was barely 100 yards from Ayden's Yard. All this area, now demolished, was where many workers from the nearby wire factory lived. So it's probable that the Pearce family moved from one address to the other between 1911 and 1914. The attestation also gives John Pearce's birthplace as St John's parish, Warrington. This is in fact St John's ward, an electoral subdivision, which covered the Gandy Street / Ayden's Court area. There was obviously a mix-up in the infantry records office in October 1915, when John Pierce was mistaken for John Pearce. But that seems to have been quickly sorted out when the South Lancs adjutant pointed out the error. But the big mystery remains. How did John Pearce get back into the Army after being medically discharged? One possible explanation is that later in the war, the recruiting officers were not too choosy and possibly turned a blind eye to ailments. Anyhow, I'll be contacting the Lancashire Infantry Museum to see if they can offer any assistance and will report back. Thanks once again to everyone for your invaluable help.
Firstly I would say that John Pierce (11115) is definitely not our man as he survived the War being discharged in Dec 1918. I think that the writing of Pierce and Pearce using the type and style of handwriting of that era may have led to the confusion at the time, as previously said 'i' and 'e' can be read either way. confirming what Kevin has said above. That leaves the conundrum of John Pearce (3230/201288) and John Pearce (10654) John Pearce (3230/201288) His medal card shows that he died of wounds 14 Mar 1917, and I have no problem with his 2 service numbers as that was common in WW1, especially for men enlisting initially in 1914. John Pearce (10654) He is the misnomer here or rather the records that we have for him match the man above in most aspects except for the service number I still think a visit to the Regimental Museum/Records Office to check out their rolls against the three service numbers may well hold the answer to this, well in short, headache of a conundrum. TD edited to add: John Pearce (3230/201288) Joined as a Territorial in 1914 and was given the number 3230, at the end of 1916 and into early 1917 the Army reorganised the numbering system of the Territorials into 6 digit service numbers each specific to a specific man, whereas the previous system allowed for many men with the same number (i.e 3230) to be particular to a particular Regiment. This shows up in Ancestry Medal Cards as 102 results for service for number 3230. John Pearce (10654) Again as this is a 5 digit number I would assume he was a Territorial when he enlisted, again searching Ancestry for just this number on the medal cards gives 66 results
TD: You're slightly missing what I think is the answer.... John Pearce is 10654/3230/201288. I believe he was discharged for a medical condition in 1914 but managed to get enlisted later as 3230 (sorry, this is conjecture but he has exactly the same details as 10654). A second man, from Widnes enlisted at about the same time into the South Lancs as 11115 JAMES PIERCE. James Pierce goes to Gallipoli, is wounded and on return from Sick Leave his pass is incorrectly written as J PEARCE. The Records Office pick up on that and say that 10654 J Pearce was discharged in 1914. The officer then corrects it to 11115 James Pierce. In the meantime John Pearce 10654/3230/202288 is leaning against the side of a trench holding his sides laughing at the mess he's causing us 100 years later. If we had known the confusion he was going to cause, I might have shot him, myself! :biggrin:
Hi Kevin Where has James Pierce come from ?? :ewink: We need the information from the Rolls to see what the 3 service numbers throw up - before I throw up :P TD
Well, I wondered about those letters in your Post #45. That referred to 11115.... tmac had pointed out that the Service record in your Post #28 had the name PIERCE in the query from the Records Office about 10264 J Pearce.... So I wondered, was there actually a J Pierce? And there was, MIC shows him as 11115 AND entering Gallipoli in July 1915... Fortunately his Record also survives, giving a Widnes address and him as JOHN Pierce..... but on his Casualty Form, 11115 is shown as James Pierce. It's because of the mux ip of surname spelling that part of the correspondence from/to the Records Office is in 3230 Pearce file (Post #28 last 2 sheets) which should be with those 2 sheets in your post #45. Put the 4 pages together and it becomes clear (?) that the Records Office thought 11115 coming back off sick leave from his wounding in Gallipoli was the discharged JOHN PEARCE 10465. Therefore the officer changes 10465 J Pearce to 11115 but NOT correcting the spelling to J PIERCE. Meantime, our slippery John Pearce has somehow got himself back into the South Lancs as 3230 etc etc etc etc.... i think........ :sign_question: EDIT TO ADD: There are 4 Service Numbers. John Pearce #1 was enlisted Aug 14 as 10465 but discharged and on file in Records Office so no Overseas Service and no reference on MIC which shows J Pearce#2 as 3230 and 201288. It has to be the same chap as family and address match, I just don't know how he got accepted - or records didn't spot he was 10465... Then J/John/James Pierce 11115 bumbles drunkenly into the picture having had a bang on the head and gets confused with J Pearce#1 If that doesn't fit then I don't know what else can be the explanation ....................!!!!
Just a further update. New information from an old newspaper report shows that John Pearce 10654 is definitely the soldier I am interested in. He is also definitely 3230 and 201288 - that is, the soldier who died of wounds in March 1917. So the other John Pearce (Pierce) is, as suspected, just a red herring - a mix-up in the records. The mystery remains as to how 10654 John Pearce re-enlisted after being medically discharged in October 1914. Thinking about it, surely it is unlikely there was any subterfuge on his part, especially as he was taken into the same regiment? Perhaps whatever disqualified him in October 1914 was sorted or cured later and he was no longer ineligible. Two of his comrades are mentioned as CQMS J Hampson and Private T Holmes. I've contacted the infantry museum and they have said they'll get back to me if they can find anything.
Hi tmac, Thanks for the update. The interesting thing is that he must have been wearing the old dog tags (3230/201288) when he was killed as the report from the hospital uses these numbers on their records. Will await the results from the Infantry Museum. TD Edited to add: WD re his service number for reference - http://ww2talk.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=143479
Before this thread develops into a cure for insomnia for other Pals on the forum I looked at CWGC entries for men with close Service Numbers. DICKINSON, CHARLES. Rank: Private. Service No: 3284. Date of Death:15/11/1916. Age: 32 Regiment/Service:South Lancashire Regiment 2nd Bn Grave Reference: I. J. 7. Cemetery: BERKS CEMETERY EXTENSION Additional Information: Husband of Estella Dickinson, of 92, Beardsworth St., Little Harwood, Blackburn. BROWN, E. Rank: Private. Service No:3227. Date of Death:10/10/1916Age:20 Regiment/Service:South Lancashire Regiment 1st/5th Bn. Grave Reference: IV. G. 14. Cemetery:VLAMERTINGHE MILITARY CEMETERY Additional Information:Son of Thomas and Elizabeth Brown, of 486, Fleet Lane, Parr, St. Helens. NOLAN, CHARLES HENRY. Rank: Private. Service No: 3229. Date of Death:17/11/1916. Age:24 Regiment/Service:South Lancashire Regiment 1st/5th Bn. Grave Reference: IV. K. 16. Cemetery:VLAMERTINGHE MILITARY CEMETERY Additional Information:Adopted son of Mrs. M. E. Twiss, of 18, Talbot Street, St. Helens. Lancs. MERCER, JOSEPH. Rank: Serjeant. Service No: 3233. Date of Death:18/08/1920. Age:28 Regiment/Service:South Lancashire Regiment 4th Bn. transf. to (C.S.M. 200548) Labour Corps Grave Reference: R.C. 936. Cemetery:NETLEY MILITARY CEMETERY Additional Information:Son of William Mercer, of 43, Boundary Rd., St. Helen's, Lancs. ARMITAGE, THOMAS. Rank: Private. Service No: 3240. Date of Death: 25/09/1915 Regiment/Service:South Lancashire Regiment 1st/4th Bn. Panel Reference: Panel 37. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL. POWNALL, JOHN. Rank: Private. Service No: 201285. Date of Death: 28/08/1918. Age: 29 Regiment/Service: South Lancashire Regiment 2nd/4th Bn. Grave Reference: II. B. 12. Cemetery: ST. MARTIN CALVAIRE BRITISH CEMETERY, ST. MARTIN-SUR-COJEUL Additional Information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. R. Pownall, of Warrington; husband of Mary E. Pownall, of 16, St. Peter's Place, Warrington. There's a chance that at least one record may have survived, which could give a likely date of (re)enlistment for 3230. If only they had said what the problem was! As stated previously, I was getting to the stage where I'd have cheerfully shot him, myself! I'm glad that 10654 and 3230/210288 ARE the same man, that's the conclusion I made, but this has certainly been a "tricky" one!! It didn't help that the confusion over the spelling of Pierce was split over the 10654 and 11115 files, but at least it makes sense, as those files survived!
Hi Tom, I have information that might help your friend in his research. I have many documents (original) for John Pearce from Warrington. He married Martha Lightfoot in 1910 and had 3 daughters, Emily, Maggie and Elizabeth Ann. I would very much like to get these documents to him. Please have him reach out to me asap.
