What have you learned about WW2 recently?

Discussion in 'General' started by dbf, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. A-58

    A-58 Not so senior Member

    If there was I haven't come across them yet. Probably not though, sadly.
     
  2. chipm

    chipm Well-Known Member

    If you looked up the word Contradiction in the dictionary.......:)
     
  3. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    There was a second Canadian officer at Dunkirk.

    Rear-Admiral Robert Timbrell

    CMM, DSC, CD, Royal Canadian Navy (February 1, 1920 – April 11, 2006) was the first Canadian to be decorated with the Distinguished Service Cross during the Second World War. This followed his part in Operation Dynamo where he was personally responsible for the evacuation of 900 troops from the beaches of Dunkirk.

    Rear-Admiral Robert W. Timbrell of the Royal Canadian Navy (Retired) was a newly-fledged Sub-Lieutenant stationed at Whale Island, Portsmouth, in May 1940 when he was summoned by an old Naval Captain sitting at his desk with a pile of paper in front of him. Twenty young officers had been told to report rather hastily after getting their gas masks, toothbrushes and shaving kit and they wondered what it was all about. Robert Timbrell knew better than to ask an irritable old Captain for details when he brusquely told him "to join the Llanthony". He had no idea what kind of ship this was and was amazed when he discovered he had been chosen to command her. He was even more astonished to find that she was a gentleman's yacht built for Lord Astor of Hever Castle and ill-equipped for naval duty. Her compass had not been swung and the only armament was the 1914 Colt 45 on Timbrell's leather belt.

    With his crew of two civilian diesel engineers from London Transport and six sailors from Newfoundland (they were actually lumberjacks), he was ordered to proceed to Ramsgate where the yacht was fuelled and provided with charts. They were then told to set course for Dunkirk. There they were to anchor off the beach and embark as many troops as they could using the two tenders swung from their davits.

    On the way, they encountered a strange variety of craft: sailing yachts, mud hoppers and Thames pleasure steamers. One of these they found broken down half way across. This boat was loaded with troops and so they towed her all the way back to Ramsgate.

    Forty years later, Admiral Timbrell told his story to Cameron Graham of the Canadian Broadcasting Service:

    "It was a very shallow beach and at low tide, the water went out a long way. We were being shelled by the Germans, the town was in flames and after we had anchored, I sent the Petty Officer in with the boats; I stayed with the yacht. We could take about 120 on each trip and our instructions were to return as soon as we were loaded. We did that for a couple of trips. Then, on the third or fourth trip, we got bombed. Although the RAF were doing a marvellous job, the odd German got through. We were hit on the fo'cs'le. I lost about five of the crew and both my anchors snapped. The fuel tanks were forward of the engine room and the fuel pipes were severed so that both engines died. We drifted up on the beach. It all happened so quickly - one minute we were there and the next we were damaged, drifting and running aground.

    It was a sunny afternoon and there were shells falling all the way down the beach with thousands of soldiers asking to be taken back to England. It was Day four of the evacuation and a stream of ships were going in and out. We drove some trucks into the water to form a small jetty. Then, at high tide, we could go alongside the trucks and men could walk on top of them and jump aboard.

    While I was high and dry, I heard the English voice of a sergeant marching some troops down, calling out the order to halt. He was tired and his uniform was not parade ground standard, but he was still smart. He turned out to be from a Guards regiment. He asked if he could help and I told him to get a Bren-gun carrier and drive it out as far as he could in the water until the engine stopped so that I could use it to anchor by. That is what he did and my two civilian diesel engineers repaired the fuel pipe, got the capstan going and winched us off. They put a plate over my bombed fo'cs'le and we sailed back to England.

    By then I was an old hand, in the eyes of the authorities, so I was given four trawlers to add to my fleet. They had come down from Scotland and their old skippers had twenty years' experience - more sea time than I will ever get in my life.

    I told them the form: 'We'll sail from Ramsgate. You stay close to me and we will go straight into Dunkirk, anchor, load and come back.' As simple as that. We sailed by night and loaded by day because at night the German E-boats were coming down the coast. My Guards sergeant had got me some Bren-guns and anti-tank weapons so now the Llanthony was armed with something more than my Colt 45. The trawlers stayed close to me - almost too close - and the port one went over a mine. She disappeared in a flash and we were not able to pick up survivors. The rest of us did two or three more trips. On one of them we had a fight with an E-boat. Thanks to my sergeant and his troops we were able to hold it off and they were surprised at our volume of fire. The Guards sergeant stayed with me for the whole time. While we were on the beach, one of the soldiers came towards us on a zig-zag course which miraculously avoided all the German shells. This was not good fieldwork, but due to a whole day spent in a French pub! He was drunker than anyone I have ever seen and he told us not to go back to England without him. He said he would come back with his ticket. He staggered back to his pub and returned with a case of brandy. 'Here's my ticket, sir, to get back to England. Don't leave me behind'. With this, he shoved his case of brandy aboard and fell asleep in the wheelhouse.

    Our last trip was the tightest. The Germans had started to enter the town and to close the ring around Dunkirk. There was no way we could return any more. Back at Portsmouth I had a job to find anyone who would take over Llanthony from me. She was beaten up with bullet holes in her funnels and her boats were smashed. We took off the Bren-guns and anti-tank weapons as well as our case of brandy and tried to get back to Whale Island, three and a half miles away. I stopped a bus and asked the conductor the best way to get back to our ship. The conductor said, 'Have you just come back from Dunkirk?' and when I told him we had, he walked around to the front of the bus and told the driver to take us there - with apologies for the detour to the civilian passengers. We got back to Whale Island complete with the brandy despite some protests concerning our army crew from the duty officer."

    Timbrell was the first Canadian decorated in WW2. He was also the last of the skippers of the "little ships" to die (in 2006).

    The Llanthony rescued 280 troops from Dunkirk and Lieut. Timbrell was awarded the Navy's Distinguished Service Cross. The Guards sergeant got the DSM - a rare naval award for a soldier.

    Between 1985 and 1993, known as Golden Era, she cruised between Greece and Turkey as an elegant charter yacht. In 1995 she was discovered lying in Rhodes harbour in an extremely dilapidated state by her present owner Ms. Nicola Mcgrail. She was put to sail on one engine and taken to Marmaris in Turkey in 1995, where she has undergone extensive renovation and the complete rebuild of her Daimler-Benz engines. She has become a showpiece at Netsel Marina, Marmaris, now restored to her former glory and retains all her original fittings. She returned to British waters for the first time in thirty years to attend The Diamond Anniversary Reunion in June 2000.


    20 year old Sub-Lieutenant Robert Walter Timbrell,RCN (later Rear Admiral) of Vancouver. Here, in June 1940, aged 20, in his naval uniform as an acting sub-lieutenant, one week after he returned from Dunkirk.
    timbrell.png Llanthony.jpg "Little ship" yacht Llanthony. The Llanthony rescued 280 troops from Dunkirk and Lieut. Timbrell was awarded the Navy's Distinguished Service Cross. The Guards sergeant got the DSM - a rare naval award for a soldier.
     
  4. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    For decades I have seen the image of the P-47 Thunderbolt crashed on the beach at St. Aubin-sur-Mer (Juno).

    Only today did I discover it was aircraft #42-76279 from the 365th Fighter Bomber Group 386th Fighter Squadron, U.S. Army Air Force.
    The aircraft was flown by 2nd Lieutentant John Alfred Weese who crash landed into the sea on 10th June 1944. His aircraft had been hit by flak during a patrol mission over Cherbourg.
    Sadly Weese was killed in the attempt. Likely drowned. Weese’s body was recovered that day, whilst the aircraft was recovered the day afterwards and dragged to the high tide mark. Weese was buried in a temporary grave at nearby Bernieres sur Mer before being repatriated back to the United States. He is now buried at the Bethlehem Cemetery, Ann Arbor, Michigan.

    John was born on January 26, 1920 in Ann Arbor, Michigan. His parents Douglas and Lorena were also both born in Michigan. His father worked as a railway express cashier and later as a railway express agent. John had one older sister and two younger sisters. By 1940 John had completed four years of high school and was still living at home.


    wesse.jpg wesse1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  5. Adam VE

    Adam VE Member

    Would have to be the British Army's Locust Control Unit based in the Arabian Peninsula.

    was interested to learn that in the '30s there were conferences and meetings on how to study and destroy the locusts, by '43 it had become a military operation as a famine in the regions would divert shipping needs from important military operations thus delaying allied counteroffensives in the regions.

    even more surprising this organized para-military group was a form of 800 British Miltary personnel, 300+ vehicles, 100 civilians, and 30 civilian vehicles all focused on stopping the swarms of locust from decimating vital food resources.

    they continued after the war as Britain still had interests in the region and there last recorded intervention I believe was in the '60s before being disbanded.

    there's very little information online about this but I recommend to anyone wanting to learn more to listen to the WW2 Podcast on the topic - https://ww2podcast.com/ww2-podcast/119-the-british-army-and-the-anti-locust-campaign/
     
    JimHerriot, WiltsHistory and stolpi like this.
  6. Grasmere

    Grasmere Member

    Hadn't realised the war was still going on in Burma for about 3 months after the rest of it finished and everyone was celebrating VE Day in the UK. Also hadn't realised what a mad, fantastic party VE Day actually was. Some of the photos and old films were unbelievable. Fair play to everyone who was there enjoying the celebrations!
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  7. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
    JimHerriot likes this.
  8. WiltsHistory

    WiltsHistory Member

  9. WiltsHistory

    WiltsHistory Member

    I learnt that SS troops were involved in guarding parts of the Nuremberg trials!
    They were volunteer/conscripted Easter Europeans, ex-POWs etc and joined the Waffen-SS. I think they were captured by the American forces, re-educated, trained, given US uniforms but were armed (!) and under US control to patrol the outer perimeter.



    It could only be the US that had members of a criminal organisation guarding war criminals...
     
    canuck likes this.
  10. WiltsHistory

    WiltsHistory Member

    That's one of the real problems I have with Germany in the war, even the few so-called 'good' attempts at resistance in the Third Reich, were seemingly only motivated by self-interest, not by suddenly growing a conscience and a backbone.
     
  11. ceolredmonger

    ceolredmonger Member

    I just found out about 9 Comp, III RDM Tchad, 2 DB Le Clerc. Much is made of Free French troops Liberating Paris however these Spanish Republican veterans led the way, capturing German governor Gen. Choltitz. FB_IMG_1594130489272.jpg
     
    JimHerriot and canuck like this.
  12. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

    Why is that, pray tell?
     
    JimHerriot and TTH like this.
  13. A-58

    A-58 Not so senior Member

    Today I learned that in 1941 (prior to our entry in the war) US forces occupied Iceland, Trinidad and British Guiana. This freed up British troops for service in forward areas where they and their supplies were sorely needed. I knew about Iceland being occupied (by a USMC brigade), but not about Trinidad and British Guiana. I wonder if any US forces were sent into British Honduras as well?
     
    JimHerriot and Dave55 like this.
  14. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Tell that to Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoeller.
     
  15. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Estimates are that over 75,000 German citizens were executed for suspected or actual opposition to the Nazis but there was certainly no widespread, coordinated effort. Kershaw claims that there was much dissent and opposition within German society, but outside of the working class, very little resistance.
     
  16. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake The Mayor of London's latest dress code

    I am not really enjoying Jon Fennel's book on Morale, but I did learn about the New Zealand Furlough "Mutiny". New Zealand allowed soldiers who had served in the Middle east for a long time a furlough at home. Only around 15% returned. The criticism of Freyberg's sensitivity to casualties at Cassino may have reflected a manpower crisis.
     
    canuck likes this.
  17. A-58

    A-58 Not so senior Member

    As much as I've been looking, I cannot find where US forces occupied British Honduras during the war at any point. Ports and islands in the Caribbean belonging to The Netherlands were, and Martinique was targeted for and airborne invasion before they switched sides from Vichy to Free French, but that's about all.
     
    JimHerriot and Dave55 like this.
  18. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

    82nd dropping into Martinique? Seems a bit of an overkill, doesn't it?" :)
    I guess they must have figured the Dutch would fire on Americans. Do you have any more info on it? Very interesting.
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  19. A-58

    A-58 Not so senior Member

    Not the 82nd, the 551st Parachute Infantry Battalion. There were training in the Panama Canal Zone for the mission when the coup in Martinique resulted in running off the Vichy Frenchies.

    Read all about it:

    551st Parachute Infantry Battalion (United States) - Wikipedia
     
    JimHerriot and Dave55 like this.
  20. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    You are talking about the extent and effectiveness of the German resistance. That is not the point at issue. The statement was made that those involved in the German resistance 'were seemingly only motivated by self-interest, not by suddenly growing a conscience and a backbone.' The facts show that was not the case with all resisters.
     

Share This Page