What have you learned about WW2 recently?

I was reading an article about Winston Churchill's 3 week visit with FDR in the White House (in December 41-January 42), that led to reading another article about his disdain for Lady Astor, that led to another article about the German's "Black Book". It was chock full of Britishers and others holing up in Britain who the Nazi's planned on arresting and executing as soon as they successfully implemented Operation Sea Lion. In the book of course were lots of politicians, Jews, communists and such, but one person's name there was a surprise to me. It was Lord Robert Baden-Powell, the founder and leader of the Boy Scouts in Britain. The Nazis it seems, regarded the Boy Scouts as a spy organization. Really, the Boy Scouts are spies? They had Boy Scouts in Germany before the Nazis disbanded and rolled it's members into the Hitler Youth, so they should know better.

I've read in the past that there was a similar book for Americans if we were ever overrun during the war too. Of all people on the list was The Three Stooges (yes, Moe, Curly and Larry, and of course Shemp too since he took Curly's place in the line-up after Curly's early retirement due to medical problems). Of course, the Stooges were all Jews, and they made fun of Hitler after we finally made it into the war. Not sure about the Marx Brothers though. Maybe Hitler had them on the list too because of their last name.

I can say without a doubt that Clark Gable (aka Rhett Butler himself) was definitely not on the list. Actually, once it was learned that Gable was in the Army Air Force and attached to the Mighty 8th Air Force, Hitler issued orders to anyone capturing Gable was to bring him directly to Berlin so they could meet. It seemed that Hitler was a huge Clark Gable fan. Not sure how that would have actually worked out, those two meeting. Maybe something like this;

Capturing German officer: ve haff orders to take you directly to Bearlin.

Gable: What the hell for?

German officer: Der Fuhrer vants to zee you.

Gable: Frankly my dear sir, I don't give a damn....

Dang krauts. The things those people did never cease to amaze me.

 

"Lord Robert Baden-Powell, the founder and leader of the Boy Scouts in Britain. The Nazis it seems, regarded the Boy Scouts as a spy organization. Really, the Boy Scouts are spies?"

I had no idea but can now claim to having belonged to a subversive organization in my youth..

 

Well now that you mention it, I was in the American Section, the Boy Scouts of America. Cub Scouts, Webelos, and Boy Scouts. Only made it Tenderfoot in Boy Scouts before bailing out, so I guess I wouldn't made a very good spy.

 

You have a FILE somewheres!

 

I'm sure. In fact, an agent has probably been assigned to this thread.

But no video.

 

Good thing. Too many smart phone cameras out there in the hands of wannabe Pulitzer Prize winners these days anyway.

 

Discovered some stuff regarding the Dunkirk evacuation. Although widely and rightly regarded as a successful operation, it did not run without hiccups. Some of the civilian sailors mutinied in the face of frustrations at the conduct of the operation and armed naval ratings had to be put aboard the ships to stiffen the resolve of merchant crews. I've just completed my 10th podcast in a series. Anyone interested further can listen at WW2 - Fighting Through from Dunkirk to Hamburg, war veteran accounts. It's based on the letters of Capt Tom Woods who captained the Lady of Mann which rescued my Dad from the beaches on 31 May 1940.
Regards
Paul

 

Perhaps this has already been mentioned elsewhere (humble apologies if so) but I have just discovered some excellent PhD theses in pdf format which cover aspects of Montgomery and 21st Army Gp in the last months of the war. Excellent reading. Try goo.gl/ehF3sE for Stephen Hart's thesis entitled 'FM Montgomery, 21st Army Gp and NW Europe 44-45'; John Peaty's thesis 'British Army Manpower Crisis 1944' at goo.gl/3Z07P2; and Charles Forrester's thesis 'Montgomery and his Legions: A Study of Operational Development, Innovation and Command in 21st AG, NW Europe, 1944-45' at goo.gl/R0jUjz.

Also a fascinating thesis on the army's morale in Italy 43-45 by Christine Ann Bielecki at goo.gl/HcrVzc.

Anyone know of other academic papers?

Regards

John

 

I read today that the first of the American Expeditionary Force promised to Britain by President Franklin D. Roosevelt landed at the Ulster port in N. Ireland on Jan. 26, 1942. The troops were commanded by Major General Russell P. Hartle, and were welcomed by Sir Archibald Sinclair, secretary of state for air. I always thought that the first troops landed in England.

 

I was just reading another article about the USN's operations in the PTO, the Battle off Samar in particular (25 Oct 44). The USS Kalinin Bay (CVE 68) was attacked by torpedoes from an IJN destroyer. The torpedo attack was made from almost maximum distance (10,500 yds - not sure how many meters that is). Anyway, as the torpedoes were approaching the Kalinin Bay, they slowed down a bit. A passing USN TBF Avenger (torpedo bomber) saw the spread of torpedoes approaching the US warship and strafed them, destroying two approximately 200 yards from the target. Fast acting gunners on-board the Kalinin Bay fired on the remaining approaching torpedo and destroyed it as well. Not bad!

This was the last action for the escort carrier. It was hit hard in the battle, receiving 15 hits from 14" guns and 11 more hits from 8" guns. So she really didn't need those potential torpedo hits at all. The Kalinin Bay made it back to the US for repairs, and finished out the war ferrying aircraft to Pearl Harbor and Guam, and troops back to the US during Operation Magic Carpet (bringing troops back from the PTO to the US).

Also during the same battle off Samar, the USS Kalinin Bay along with the USS St. Lo (CVE-63 ) were the only US carriers in history to score hits on enemy surface ships with their own deck guns. Each CVE only had one (1) 5" gun. Tough little ships.

 

Yes, obviously I did. And I had the second post in your thread. Dang.

Great thread though. Going to have to go through it again looks like.

 

Twin brothers killed in the same aircraft.

On the night of April 10-11, 1943, his aircraft was struck by flak; the pilot ditched in the North Sea. In the words of the citation to his DFM, “Sergeant Robert Ernest Tod worked coolly at his apparatus, maintaining wireless contact with base. His excellent work enabled the aircraft to be continuously plotted from the ground and plans for rescue to be made. The entire crew of the aircraft were picked up within 15 minutes of coming down on the sea. This airman displayed great coolness and unswerving devotion to duty throughout.”
Tod lived long enough to know he had been decorated; on the night of June 22-23, 1943, his aircraft was shot down by a night-fighter, crashing in the Zuider Zee in the Netherlands. The full crew was killed, including Sgt. Robert Ernest Tod and another gunner, Sgt. Richard Douglas Tod. The two men were twins. They had enlisted together, and their training and postings had been in lock-step with one another. The only period of separation was a two-month stretch between Dec. 14, 1942, and Feb. 12, 1943, when Richard was recovering from injuries sustained in a fall in the London subway. Both had been involved in the April 1943 ditching, and as members of the Lost Legion they shared a common fate.

One can only marvel at the minds that allowed them to fly in the same aircraft.

https://legionmagazine.com/en/2013/01/lost-in-the-raf-air-force-part-55/

 

On Bomber Command ops, for every one crew member who was able to parachute to safety (usually into captivity) from a stricken aircraft, four others would not make it out.

 

Regarding the discussion in January about Baden-Powell, BP claimed in his 1915 book "My Adventures as a Spy" to have concealed the layout of a fortress in a drawing of a butterfly. Of course, by WW2 he was an elderly man. In replying I did an online search which turned up a claim that Boy Scouts in WW1 acted to help deal with the aftermath of zeppelin bombing and watched railway lines for sabotage, but I don't know whether that's true.

 

In 1941 an attempt was made to camouflage large bodies of water that were being used by the Luftwaffe as navigation aids. These were often visible at great distances particularly on moonlight nights - RAF crews raiding Kiel could spot Elbe river 50 miles away and test flights found that Liverpool docks were visible from 35 miles. The project was handed to the Admiralties Department of Miscellaneous Weapon Development or DMWD – known as the "Wheezers and Dodgers".

Lt Commander Duncan Bruce, AFW Coulson and FD Richardson came up with blend of coal dust and fuel oil which when sprayed over relatively calm water would cling to surface creating a dark, non-reflecting surface. Application was by a high pressure jet apparatus but was very messy, the men and vessels becoming coated with a slimy layer of coal dust. A hundred pounds of the mixture was enough to cover an acre of water

It was first tried on River Thames but was defeated by tide, wind and current - housewives downstream also began to complain bitterly of dirty washing! Application was thus limited to sheltered dockside and waterways. One such that was tried was the Coventry canal, which was being used as a landmark by German bombers heading for Birmingham. This was more successful, even at ground level the canal now appeared indistinguishable from an asphalt road. So successful that in 1942 an old gentleman and dog on their evening stroll had to be rescued from drowning by nearby soldiers after mistaking the canal for road.

German use of precision radio beam systems, such as Knickebein and X-Gerat, (used for “Moonlight Sonata”, the November raid on Coventry) meant that disguising these large bodies of water became less important and the attempt seems to have been quietly dropped.

The story appears in Masquerade. The amazing camouflage deceptions of World War II, by Seymour Reit, published London 1979.

 

I read this in Pat O'Brien's yesterday when I could still read. It was Mardi Gras, and Pat O'Brien's is in the heart of the French Quarter and in the middle of the action. Anyway, it seems that WW2 had a direct hand in the creation of the Hurricane, the signature drink at Pat O's. Read on:

In the early 1940s, there was an acute shortage of distilled spirits because the grains and sugars necessary to produce those drinks were rationed greatly due to the war effort. However, there was a large supply of rum coming into the Port of New Orleans from the Caribbean area. Bar owners in New Orleans were forced to buy large amounts of rum, 50 cases or so in order to get one case of Scotch or whiskey from booze salesmen. The bartenders at Pat O's began experimenting with the rum to make something out of the huge amounts of rum that was on hand (and readily available) at that time. Out of this situation came the Hurricane, in which every drink had 4 oz of rum that was mixed with the fruity Hurricane mix. Ummmmmmmmmmmm.

I had more than a few of those Hurricanes yesterday.

And always remember;

 

The soft drink Fanta was invented in Nazi Germany when the war made it difficult import Coca-Cola syrup from the US.

 

The German town of Konstanz avoided being bombed during the war by convincing the Allies it was part of Switzerland. The town was right on the border between Germany and Switzerland and they kept all their lights on throughout the night which made the Allies think it was a Swiss city and not a German one.