What could this number be?

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Gmbourke, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    I have picked up where my grandmother left off trying to track down British merchant navy records for my grandfather.

    Iv not had much luck as i dont have a service number or anything like that but did manage to find this document. It is an Index of merchant seamens campaign medals for 1939 - 1945. (see attached)

    He is the last listed "ZIELINSKI, Ludomir." In the last column there is a number listed "141256" i was hoping someone may recognise the number and be able to tell me what it may be. Im Hoping it is some kind of service number but cant confirm as the top of the page seems to me missing

    Any help in identifying what this number is would be greatly appreciated
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Could be ships official number ? I dont think Merchant seaman had service numbers?

    Crew List Index Project

    Kyle
     
    Tricky Dicky and CL1 like this.
  3. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    I was not sure if they were given any form of service number, But i figured it had to have some importance but of its a ship number that is just as helpfull. I wasn't aware ship had a number figured it was only their name.

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    It does its called a number 2
     
  5. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    interesting, Thank you. At least i know the significance of the number. hopefully i cant find some more info.
     
  6. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Welcome to the forum.

    Forum member Hugh MacLean has a wealth of knowledge on WW2 naval matters generally and MN in particular.

    He may be able to give you some helpful advice on a way forward.

    Good Luck

    Steve
     
    ozzy16, vitellino, Gmbourke and 3 others like this.
  7. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hello and welcome,
    The number you quote - sadly - is not his MN number [called a discharge book number or just discharge number], nor is it a ship number. The number is a reference number to his medal file and should be used in any communication with the Registry of Shipping and Seamen in Cardiff - who are the medal authority for the Merchant Navy during WW2.

    Can you give me his nationality please? I will take a look and give you advice on where you need to look for his service.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
  8. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    I believe he was a Polish seaman, maybe an engineer. He only has the medal file online which you have. This shows his entitlement to the 1939-45 Star, Atlantic Star, Italy Star and the War Medal. The file indicates the medals were issued or later claimed by his next of kin.
    The file to find out his service in British MN ships would be his CRS 10 which begins from January 1941 - other methods needed to find out ships prior to that date which I am happy to guide you should you need it.
    I would suggest his file if it has survived will be held in one of two pieces. BT 382/3214 - most likely but if not try BT 382/3289
    Those files are held in surname block order with up to 60 other names so you would need to visit TNA Kew or appoint a researcher to obtain them.
    There is a Ludomir Zielinski aboard the Polish BORYSLAW ex- EMPIRE HUNTER - who joins the ship on 15/11/1944 in London as the fourth engineer. His age is a year or so out but that is not uncommon and I believe it may well be him. Anyway the CRS 10 is the file to prove it. If it is the correct man then he had been at sea since about 1928.
    Any questions please feel free.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Tullybrone, ozzy16, Gmbourke and 2 others like this.
  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Would this be him

    Ludomir Zielinski
    –1982
    BIRTH 24 Sep 1909 • Gnizno, Poland
    DEATH 22 JUL 1982 • Box Hill Nth, Victoria, Australia

    Spouse Thelma elizabeth Smith
    Father Michael Zielinski
    Mother helena Zielinski
    Birth 24 Sep 1909 Gniezno, Wielkopolskie, Poland
    Death 22 Jul 1982 Box Hill, Victoria, Australia


    Boryslaw arrivals and departures - Arnold Hague Ports database
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  10. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    Thank you very much, i was going to send him a message but he has found me :)

    Yes this is him. a polish national.

    .
    yes i have those medals im my possession, Thelma was unsure if he ever received them at the time or if he did never mentioned them. So they were re issued to her in the mid 90s from the MoD if im reading the letters i have correctly.
    im assuming you saw this (see attached), but i found it a couple days ago while searching. The age does seem to be a bit off (going by the years at sea column) but my mother is pretty sure he mentioned he lied about his age. He was defiantly an engineer as i have his diploma. and also an epaulette (2nd engineer if im correct) we assume from an old uniform. But i also have found a number of documents showing he was in New York a few time So im pretty positive this is him.

    i did come across this but looking at so much other stuff without success i was sceptical about trying to get this document as it was not something i was able to download but i think i will try request that not and see what i can find.

    Sorry what is a CRS 10? or is that the file your referring to that may be located within BT 382/3214 or BT 382/3289?

    Also if i did manage to get my hands on those documents from the TNA and none of his info is listed im guessing ill be pretty much hitting a brick wall?
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    i had been trying to track movements of this ship and managed to find a polish website with the history of the ship including 5 ot 6 allied convoy numbers. so thank you for that. ill be going though that and comparing documents i have to see if he was actually on the ship at various ports.
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Go to the web site - Arnold Hague Ports database select Ship Search from the left hand options and then type in BORYSLAW in the Ships name box, select search and the ships movements should appear - they did for me
     
    Tullybrone, 4jonboy, ozzy16 and 4 others like this.
  13. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    Yeah I did. Everything showed up. Think that will be tomorrows task.
     
  14. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Yes, correct, I am pretty sure it is him especially now that you have confirmed he was an engineer. The epaulette I can confirm is that of 2nd engineer.
    Yes that is correct.

    His CRS 10 is a primary record for British MN service during the war. It will list his discharge number and all of his ships including dates of engagment and discharge as well as the ports. Everything else you have such as crew manifests do not give enough identifying information and are limited to ships that only docked at New York. That said, I think we are clear that those manifests almost certainly relate to the correct man.

    I am pretty sure that if his CRS 10 has survived it will list BORYSLAW but not any ships prior to January of 1941. You would need to check crew lists of known ships to find him prior to that date. You would also have to remember that prior to the war he would probably have been serving on mainly Polish shipping and therefore you would need to know where their records are kept to continue the search for his records.

    If looking for ship movements use Convoyweb but also cross refer with any surviving movement cards so download for free [just sign in] BT 389/35/25 - BORYSLAW

    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Tullybrone, ozzy16 and Gmbourke like this.
  15. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    Hopefully I can manage to find something. I'll have to look into getting a researcher to go through the document in person as I live in Australia.

    But in saying that thank you Hugh, tricky and everyone else for your help. Just Knowing what records I need to actually find has been a great help. Much appreciated.

    Also out of curiosity, you stated the original document in regards to medals says they were issues or claimed by next of kin. How do you tell? Would it happen to be the X through the corresponding medal?
     
  16. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Any medal entitlement that is listed in BT 395 at Kew has to have been either issued to the seaman or claimed by him or his next of kin. Some medal ribbons were issued during the war but the actual medals came later and if not actually claimed by the seamen then they were never issued. So in many cases, the seaman had to apply for his own medals and many did not bother. I only got my father's medals about 10 years after his death. If there is no entitlement found in BT 395 then it is up to the next of kin to prove that medal entitlement through evidence such as discharge books, CRS10, crew agreements, movement cards and so on - thankfully that process is not required by you.

    The X through the medal means the medal was claimed and the circle means only the ribbon was issued. A circle and an X mean both the medal and the ribbon were claimed.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Tullybrone and ozzy16 like this.
  17. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    I just wanted to say good luck and hope you can get his CRS 10! I was able to get one for my grandfather and together with the Convoyweb database was able to map out his many voyages during WW2.
     
    Hugh MacLean likes this.
  18. Gmbourke

    Gmbourke Member

    Ah, interesting
    Thank you. Hopefully I manage to find something
     

Share This Page