Welsh Guards, Other Ranks: unofficial Nominal Roll by Army Number order

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by dbf, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Craig
    Great photo, looks like a training squad photo, taken after the man had passed out as Guardsmen.


    Just a quick clarification, squad not squadron, and infantry used other terms - companies, platoons, sections.

    The 2nd Battalion WG was created in 1939
    Screen Shot 2015-05-23 at 00.02.47.png
    and this is the battalion receiving their Colours from HM the King, after the Irish Guards 2nd bn got theirs, 23 seconds onwards... who knows either you or your Dad's customer might spot your grandfathers in it.
    http://www.britishpathe.com/video/king-presents-new-colours-aka-the-ceremony-at-the/query/welsh+guards



    This diary covers the 2nd bn between Sep 1939 - Dec 1941 and covers both Hook of Holland (evacuation of the Dutch Royal Family) and Boulogne
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/27407-war-diary-2nd-battalion-welsh-guards-sep-1939-dec-1941/

    This thread is a report about the evacuation at Boulogne, when a sizeable percentage of the 2nd Battalion Welsh Guards unfortunately ended up as prisoners... there are other links at the end of the thread which you might find of interest.
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/31466-report-on-evacuation-of-boulogne-20-guards-brigade/

    As for Liberation questionnaires, there is no guarantee your grandfather completed one particularly as you say he escaped before liberation. Those which were completed can be found at Kew under WO 344 Series... and viewed for free if you can get there yourself. I'm afraid that although I have a few WG ones, I don't have anything for your grandfather.
    One of our members, [member='PsyWar.Org'], explains the questionnaires on his site, far better than I could
    http://arcre.com/questionnaires

    Also just to check with you, have you or anyone else in the family applied for copy service records from WG RHQ at Wellington Barracks?
    If not, they'd be worth getting as it will give you dates of enlistment, training and embarkation.
    see post 2 http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/31741-researching-guardsmen-and-the-foot-guards/?p=383783

    Also try contacting The Welsh Guards Collection to see if they have any more info or photos in their archives
    http://www.virtual-shropshire.co.uk/welshguards/


    I'll try and check the other names on the squad photo for you and see if I have any further info on them.
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Sorry, I forgot to mention that ICRC also hold POW records and although they take some time to reply, it's worth asking as sometimes there is also a photo on file, along with full details of camps / work camps / dates. If there is no liberation questionnaire on file at Kew, this will be the only way to confirm where he was held and when. Generally POWs were transferred between camps quite a bit.


    https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/icrc-archives/agency-archives-seeking-information.htm?
    https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/article/other/02-01-archives-second-world-war.htm
     
  3. Incredibledisc

    Incredibledisc Well-Known Member

    I'm interested in Guardsman Trevor Court. Service number 2735630, POW number 3859. He appears to have been a good friend of my great Grandfather to feature so prominently in his scrapbook. Based on what he wrote here, I wonder whether he was the unfortunate recipient of a "Dear John..." letter at some point. Any chance you have some additional info Dbf?

     
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  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Sorry
    Other than the usual POW listings I've no further info, and no note of when he was taken POW.

    In 1940 the 1st Bn fought with BEF (incl. Arras) and the 2nd Bn was involved in two actions - Hook of Holland and Boulogne. I know that the 2nd ended up with a good many men captured after Boulogne - over 300 listed as Missing / 1/3 of bn strength.

    No idea what the reference to 1941 is, in his? case either; both the 1st and 2nd Bns Welsh Guards were in UK, training, firstly in expectation of invasion and then for their new armoured division role.
    War Diary, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, Jul 1940 - Dec 1941
    War Diary, 2nd Battalion Welsh Guards, Sep 1939 - Dec 1941

    Neither Bn saw action again until GAD embarked in June 1944.
    War Diary: 1st Battalion WELSH GUARDS, Jan - Dec 1944
    2nd Recce Battalion Welsh Guards, GAD, Tank Casualties, 1945

    The link below has been useful in the past to those unable to apply for service records.
    The Welsh Guards Collection
     
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  5. Incredibledisc

    Incredibledisc Well-Known Member

    Thanks for information. I would speculate that he was a 1940 Guardsman made POW in 1940 the same as my great grandfather. The 1941 reference is slightly puzzling in that respect. I wonder if this was something that "did the rounds" in the camps as it was a common experience for more than a few men. There are another couple of songs/poems in his book - one about the desert (where he didn't serve!) and also one about a pre-war fire in a Paisley cinema so perhaps they copied them out to help pass the time?
     
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Aye, it would make more sense if this was a reaction by Guardsman Court to someone else's situation. I can imagine there were enough examples of men getting such letters from home to produce empathetic sentiments like those - in what to me reads like a 'POW newsletter article'.

    And, I remember shortly after I joined the forum being told by a researcher here of some less than complimentary comments made by fellow soldiers to a former POW he knew who'd just been liberated and was awaiting liberation leave. His mother, who didn't recognise him at first when he returned home, suffered a stroke as a result of seeing him in such poor physical condition, yet apparently from many quarters there was little understanding of the experiences of PsOW.
     
  7. R Lewis

    R Lewis Member

    2738315 L/Sgt FREDERICK JOHN LEWIS Welsh Guards
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  9. R Lewis

    R Lewis Member

    thank you very much R lewis. I have found a photo online showing my dad and his company sitting on a cromwell. would you be interested in it. , i`ve also got a photo of him with his company in a named photo. I think it may have been taken at caterham.
     
  10. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    That'd be great if you could. Sharing info can get you in contact with others on the net - relatives or researchers - particularly if its a named squad or troop photo.

    Did he serve with the 2nd Armd Recce Battalion? Have you got copy service records from RHQ Welsh Guards, Wellington Barracks?
     
  11. R Lewis

    R Lewis Member

    Like many dad did not talk a lot about events in Normandy. I know he was a fitter with the guards, but there were a few things he said. he told me that a good mate had been killed in a cromwell when a shell came through the barrel of the tank. (i found a image on your site that maybe the tank, the commander was killed), a old friend of his told me that Dad had pulled his mate out. another thing that he was upset by was Belsen. whenever there was any mention of it on the TV, he always said "those poor people". It only struck me on the last anniversary of the liberation that he may have been there. I haven't got any records other than his service and day book. Dad is top row 3rd from left. many thanks


    upload_2017-1-29_16-43-14.png
    upload_2017-1-29_16-44-37.png
     
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  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks for sharing that photo. I found a link online 2nd Battalion, The Welsh Guards, gathered around a Cromwell soon after arriving in Normandy, 1944 | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London

    Aye, that other image is from this linked thread. They are only for 1945 tank casualties however, so if your father's story was for Normandy that link won't be relevant, I'm afraid.

    2nd Recce Battalion Welsh Guards, GAD, Tank Casualties, 1945

    I checked the date using Geoff's Search Engine and the only Welsh guardsman who is listed as having died on that day - 21st April 1945 - is this man. Does his name ring a bell?

    Casualty Details
    BINT, FRANCIS JOHN
    Rank: Lance Serjeant
    Service No: 2735895
    Date of Death: 21/04/1945
    Age: 29
    Regiment/Service: Welsh Guards, 2nd Bn.
    Grave Reference: 1. C. 1.
    Cemetery: BECKLINGEN WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of John Ernest Bint and of Nellie Bint (nee Matthews), of Birmingham.



    If you want to get more information, I'd recommend applying to Wellington Barracks then for copy of your father's service records
    See this linked post.
    Researching Guardsmen and the Foot Guards
     
  13. R Lewis

    R Lewis Member

    thank you for the info will start my research this week, I will dig out that named photo and check for Francis John Bint. I know that dad went to Germany because he mentioned it. He also brought back a 20 million mark note and an accordion as proof. forgive my ignorance but could he have been involved in it. once again thank you for your time
     
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Sorry, involved in what? The campaign in Germany? Most certainly if he hadn't been wounded or transferred before then.

    The WG history might be of interest to you
    2nd hand
    Welsh Guards at War by Ellis Major L F - AbeBooks
    reprint
    Welsh Guards At War - Naval & Military Press


    The battalion war diaries are held at The National Archives, Kew. These ones for 1943-1945 were found using Lee's search engine - you never know your Dad might be mentioned somewhere in them; they would certainly hold more detail than the above Regimental History.

    WO 166/12473 2 Welsh Guards 1943 Jan.-Dec.
    WO 171/1260 2 Welsh Guards (Armoured Reconnaisance) 1944 Jan.- Dec.
    WO 171/5152 2 Welsh Guards 1945 Jan.- Dec.
     
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  15. R Lewis

    R Lewis Member

    sorry for being so vague, in relation to the damaged barrel. He was never injured and his service book shows he was awarded 39/45 France and Germany stars. since my last reply I have found a British army of the Rhine certificate signed by Lieutenant General R L Mclreeny? (difficult to read) for "outstanding good service and devotion to duty during the occupation of Germany". dated 16 Jan 1947. Thanks again
     
  16. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    That would be Richard McCreery. He commanded X (BR) Corps in Italy then got promoted to command the Eighth Army in Italy. By 1947, he was in Germany.

    FdeP
     
  17. RogerD

    RogerD New Member

    Hi there,

    This refers to my dad for inclusion on your role. Albert Henry Downing Army number 2738890 severely wounded 3/4/45 ( I think this is recorded on thread GAD Tank Causalities 1945) but still working on it

    Regards

    RogerD
     
  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Thanks Roger
    have added your father's details to the relevant post.
    Welsh Guards: unofficial Nominal Roll by Army Number order
     
  19. MAW

    MAW Junior Member

    I notice you have a family tree member on your list:

    2732706 Guardsman Charles Randolph Stone
    3 Company, 2nd Welsh Guards


    Born Cardiff 1907
    Died Cardiff 1978

    He was awarded a Military Medal (published in the London Gazette, 13 Sept 1945).

    I am just starting to research his military experiences and would like to know of further sources.

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  20. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Welcome to the forum.

    RHQ WG have recently transferred their service file archive to MOD in Glasgow, You ought to be able to get a copy of his service file on provision of a his death certificate and payment of £30 and completion of the appropriate application forms via this link -

    Get a copy of military service records: Apply for the records of someone who's deceased - GOV.UK

    I can’t see a transcribed version of 2nd WG War Diary Post D Day on the forum but if you search through the Brigade of Guards forum you will find some information on his unit - the armoured Reconnaisance unit in the Guards Armoured Division. I think there is a topic on WG Gallantry awards. If heisn't listed you ought to use the National Archives Discovery search engine as there should be a copy citation there - the unit War Diary will also be available there. On the other hand several members offer a NA look up and copying service. Just post a request.

    The Brigade of Guards

    Good Luck

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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