Wellington X lost out of Foggia Main Italy

Hear hear, Marco, we ought indeed be more usefully proactive than just sitting around to "follow the research" - if only for the sake of MP's "discouraged" "boys" morale and seemingly for the want of a bit more sharing on their part:

• Top question in my mind is "dove?" - "where" exactly (inc. stratification) did they find that evidently torn & sooty fragment? That alone is proof positive, in my book, that we're on the right track and pinpointing its location would greatly inform our scouring maps & photos to help steer the team toward its likely origin. Don't they use GPS to thus log their finds? (if trees block reception, after all, just measure off a nearby clearing fix - hardly rocket science)
• The 3 search photos seem to have been taken in a young stand of beech trees on the S side (note moss/lichen on their trunks) of a fairly modest hillock/ridge (clear horizon behind it in #3) with atypically damp ground beside a track at its foot (thicket & tan strip beyond MR in #3 + lilies/docks? in #1) - mostly suggesting to me one of the manifold minor valleys up on the plateau
• In lieu of an exact fix, confirmation of when #3 was taken would help orientate it more exactly by the pair of trunk shadows directly uphill of MR
• Closer inspection of the fragment (from a variety of angles as yet forthcoming) should serve to yield more of its history in relation to the whole - e.g. extent of soot to order events. And how/when did the sooty/oily deposit get to be scratched like that?
• Is removal of military wreckage banned by law in Italy, as it is here in the UK, so we may expect the bulk of it not to have been taken away for scrap? If not it may well have been long-since 'recycled' - e.g. any suspiciously-geodesic poly-tunnels thereabout? *
• And an accurate, preferably verbatim, account of Antonietta's recollections wouldn't be such a bad idea either

Steve

* Effectively answered by 3rd paragraph of the team's mission page - translated here as:
"Find the point at which an aircraft fell is almost never going to be easy. During the years of World War II in Campania and nearby it fell to dozens. Of those precipitated in the centers is almost impossible to trace if not ritrovarne in the memory of a witness or in history books. The aircraft crashed in the countryside or mountains our region are now disappeared. In fact, the precious aluminium were made, of which constituted a temptation too strong as they lived in that troubled period. For this reason also the aircraft fell in the most inaccessible areas have been dismembered and carried downstream for noble metal could be resold as scrap to smelters. The reader must then consider how you can retrieve a felling site plane are countless shards of metal, plastic and wood. Yet from these tiny fragments was almost always possible to identify the type of aircraft and, at times, also thanks to the valuable collaboration of institutions and individuals, who composed his crew."


Dear,

Here I am only serving as occasional translator, on the kind demand of James himself, since it's difficult to find foreigners able to understand and write in Italian. I also contacted the local authorities and associations in Laviano and in the surrounding villages, for the same reason. Furthermore, this is not my search, and I have never been in Laviano before; I agreed for historical and humanitarian interest but I never deepened this fascinating story as James did.

I am not giving easy words or "sitting around", I simply provided the best suggestion I could to James: to try to delimitate a smaller area, in order to help the people on the ground. They kindly agreed to do this search for you but, with all the best will and efforts, they can't search the whole region on foot.
I spent years on the Western Alps, between mountaineering and alpinism in all the possible seasons and weathers, and I may assure you that it's not always so easy, funny and sunny as it may seem from distance. Above all if you have to carry huge backpacks and costly metal detectors.

If you have further questions or constructive criticisms, you may directly contact Matteo and his team. I just wanted to suggest a deeper research among the local witnesses, I found your reply's tone unespected and quite excessive.

Kind regards,


Marco

 

I found your reply's tone unespected and quite excessive.
Sorry but I certainly didn't mean to disagree with you in any way - my best guess being that you simply misunderstood:

• "Hear, hear! an exclamation of approval from the hearers of a speech" (Chambers English Dictionary)
• "Hear, hear is an expression used as a short, repeated form of hear him, hear him. It represents a listener's agreement with the point being made by a speaker." (Wikipedia)

My suggestions were not directed at you but really toward Collers who's call it is whether or not to thus press Matteo for more information and, even then, only about what he's already done in order, as I said, for us to try and make his very welcome offer of a return trip that much easier when the time comes - your apparent aim and mine for the mutual good.

And rest assured I've been climbing mountains in all sorts of weather since 1968 - though admittedly only as high as 5,199m, so far, and only by routes up to grade TD/VI because I only do it for fun!

 

PPS: Returning to Wellington footage, I forgot to mention Yesterday were scheduled to show 'Wellington Bomber' Tue & Wed just gone. Thinking it was 'The Vickers Wellington', which I already have from DocuWiki, I didn't bother recording it but now rather wish I had - to see how it differed. Anyone interested can keep an eye out for further airings c/o 'LocateTV'.
Repeated tomorrow at 23:00 for anyone, like me, still wanting to catch it - again see 'LocateTV'

Steve

 

• I finally laid hands on a copy of Out of the Italian Night for long enough to snap pp83-87 yesterday! Please find my transcript of the relevant excerpt attached for anyone not so lucky. My matters arising for this thread are:Cause:Confirmation of 2 compasses aboard debunks my contrary suspicion (post 5) and arguably negates all risk of LP127 being afflicted by an undetected compass error - even if lightning literally struck once more as it did Lihou's kite!
• Astral navigation required Lihou to fly back as high as he dare whilst oddly not mentioning the risk of icing as a deterrent. I also find it odd they should still see stars whilst apparently flying between two cloud strata. So, with no real clue to their altitude, esp. as the Met. forecast was so wrong, we can't tell whether their predicament kept them well above the mountains or they were just incredibly lucky enough not to hit one whilst flying through one of those legion cloud tops too big to dodge. Was Broad thus emulating Lihou with less luck or ironically flying lower on instruments - maybe even with a devious altimeter fault?

[*]Cargo: Both singularities (lost a/c & non-jettisoning crew) may prove one & the same to undermine Collers' deduction that "Obviously they must have jettisoned their bomb load" (post 102)
[*]Route: The only clue to Lihou's (outbound) route was being near enough the sea to dump bombs there so it's back to awaiting the operational game plan - esp. considering the very roundabout route taken by the unfortunate parallel leafleting raid
[*]Further to 'Wellington Bomber' and/versus 'The Vickers Wellington', I've found their common basis (a 12'48" short) may be seen it in its own right c/o TNA - 'Worker's Week-end'
Cheers, Steve

 

+ 1399299 Sergeant Frank Henry Baker Navigator 40 Squadron RAF Aged 24 +

Remembering with pride my uncle Frank and the crew of Wellington LP127-P who lost their lives on a mountainside south-east of Laviano, Italy at 0100 hrs on 25th May 1944.

1800908 Sergeant Frederick John Broad Aged 22 Pilot
1604379 Sergeant Richard Roy Clements Bartram Aged 30 Wireless Operator/Gunner
R/144997 W/O Pascal Albert Joseph Desico (RCAF) Aged 27 Bomb Aimer
1693660 Sergeant Kenneth James Nuttycombe Aged 21 Rear Gunner

"Some corner of a foreign field......"

Collers

 

+ 1399299 Sergeant Frank Henry Baker Navigator 40 Squadron RAF Aged 24 +

Remembering with pride my uncle Frank and the crew of Wellington LP127-P who lost their lives on a mountainside south-east of Laviano, Italy at 0100 hrs on 25th May 1944.

1800908 Sergeant Frederick John Broad Aged 22 Pilot
1604379 Sergeant Richard Roy Clements Bartram Aged 30 Wireless Operator/Gunner
R/144997 W/O Pascal Albert Joseph Desico (RCAF) Aged 27 Bomb Aimer
1693660 Sergeant Kenneth James Nuttycombe Aged 21 Rear Gunner

"Some corner of a foreign field......"

Collers


Lest we forget.

 

Nothing I can add other than to say that this has been a excellent reason to visit tonight. Thank you.

 

Glad you enjoyed the twists and turns of this Thread and thanks for your kind comment.

Without many contributions from some very knowledgable and great people on this forum I would never have discovered a fraction of what I now know. It's been a very educational time.

I'm still waiting for my uncle's service record from the MOD and I'm hoping Salerno 1943 will manage to locate the actual crash site so that I can complete the story.

Collers

PS - Thanks for the great links (unfortunately two have been removed from Youtube)

 

I have at long last received the service record of my uncle Sergeant Frank Baker but unfortunately just two sheets recording his basic movements.

There are many acronyms and I have identified most from several lists available on-line. However, there are a few that don't occur anywhere and I'm hoping someone can provide an answer for these please.

U.T. /P. (2).

2 Reg Sch

ACCB

u/T ABMR

maa 7

3 BPD (Base Personnel Department but where was No. 3 ?)

ANNUAL FILMING MAR 1944

Thanks
Collers

 

Annual filming is microfilming of the record

ACCB Air crew commission Board

BPD is base personnel depot

No.3 was in Italy
AIR 29/847No. 3 Base Personnel Depot, Bellavista, Portici later No. 56 Personnel Transit Centre, Portici and Gragnano

U/T was under training

Regards
Ross

 

Don't feel too hard done by Collers - as John Cooper wrote here, "I have my own service record from the RAF, it is nowhere complete and not in full. After 7 years of an Airmans discharge his/her Main Records are destroyed leaving just the bare essentials." Also partially filling in after Ross ...

• ABMR = Air Bomber ?
• /P (2) = Pilot (2nd class/stage ?)
• Reg Sch = Regulating School - RN but with RAF jurisdiction ?
• Finally, what with MAA being so elusive, are you sure you've read all aright ?

Cheers, Steve

 

ROSS
Thanks for your help with the hieroglyphs and the Air 29/847 link - I've requested a quote for this.

STEVE
With regard to 2 REG Sch and maa 7 they are exactly as recorded - see attached excerpt.

Of course I would have preferred the record to have about 50 pages complete with photographs but this is the real world and I'm very grateful for what I did receive.

Thanks
Collers

 

Ahh, picture and date helps

5 months deferred service.

No.2 Regiment School (Attached, awaiting space on training unit)
AIR 29/50522 Recruits Centre, Whitley Bay (UK), became 2 RAF Regiment School in February 1942. Reformed at Newtownards (Northern Ireland) in February 1943 and later based at Long Kesh and Aldergrove; then became 4 Reception Unit.

I see he was trained in South Africa at No.48 and No.47 Air schools

The ORB for No.47 Air School SAAF is available for free download from The National Archives. I have produced an index to the files and what page ranges cover which dates (He was posted just outside the date range of the files at the TNA but they will give a flavour of the unit and the training)

No.47 Air School SAAF

As you can see this was an Air Bomber and Gunnery training unit so if the dates correspond with U/t ABMR then Steve's abbreviation is confirmed.
Check the dates of U/t P against attendance at 15 EFTS as he may have been a wash out from this unit but his record suggest that he was only Attached rather than posted for pilot training.

No.22 Personnel Transit Centre was in Egypt and No.3 BPD in Italy so I think that your MAA 7 is more likely MAAF given the date.
Mediterranean Allied Air Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where did you see ACCB in the record? I can see the sequence of Air Crew Receiving Centre/Air Crew Despatch Centre but nothing to suggest he attended the ACCB for unsuccessful commission interview.

Drew or one of the other researchers on here will be cheaper than the TNA for the copy of AIR29 as this is a paper document.

Regards
Ross

 

Yes it's hard to beat independent verification. That's now clearly MAAF as the supposed 7 is a classic F - as per Ancestry's census handwriting guide here:

The spacing is a bit misleading but don't forget the sensible continental practice of crossing sevens & zeros was regarded as very un-British back then - so much so that it was a stereotypical way of recognising kraut agents like, say, the fake sapper who kept score of a card game on the back of a telegram form in Went the Day Well? Those As, BTW, would also bear interpretation as G/Qs but thankfully no need to go there on this occasion.

And yes, dagnabbit, I had unsuccessfully theorised Regimental School - another case where a web search engine supporting wildcard syntax may well have vastly improved my results!

Cheers each, Steve

 

ROSS
Thanks for the additional info.

When I look at some of the dates and locations and the time spent at them, it seems some of the movements must have been entered belatedly. For instance 27/10/42 - Aircrew Dispatch Centre followed by the next entry 02/12/1942 - No. 2 Regiment School. This implies that Frank was at the ACDC for five weeks - a long time to be at a Dispatch Centre.

With regard to South Africa, it seems he spent about a month in Durban, (Clairwood Camp ?)before being posted to 47 and 48 Air Schools.

I think you are correct with maa 7. The 7 is written in continental fashion and could have been the letter " F" thus making it MAAF as you suggest. This makes sense as it's squeezed into the same box together with 40 Sqdn. and should therefore be read as Mediterranean Allied Air Forces 40 Squadron. As we know, 40 Squadron was part of 205 Group who were seconded to the Allied Airforce under American control at that time.

Attached are 3 more scans of the Service Record providing 100% coverage. ACCB can be found on Serv Rec5.jpg

I have previously used PsyWar.Org (Lee) for a TNA search and found his service excellent and so will save some precious money with him again.

STEVE
I'm glad you've definitely nailed that one because it makes total sense in the correct context as you can see from Ross/my above deliberations. I should have realised that at the onset because I've done a fair amount of transcribing old hand-written records for Ancestry and I'm quite familiar with the chart.

Thank you both for your excellent help

Collers

 

Yes, Collers, context rules OK! If you've not already done so I suggest assembling all the scattered events into a single timeline to better see how they relate. And it may pay you, while you're at it, to pin down days of the week for additional insight (say c/o The Infoplease Perpetual Calendar) - e.g. typical Saturday marriage of, according to the still-popular Saxon fortune rhyme, a "loving and giving" Friday child.

Plus it's certainly gratifying to see your "ABMR" was really "A.BMR" - effectively clinching my semi-blind deduction after all.

TTFN, Steve

 

Sorry, not ACCB but ACCRO which was Aircrew Candidate Central Records Office (sometimes Central Registry Office).

It would be very unusual for an airman to be washed out of pilot training and immediately interviewed for Commission while being downgraded by two aircrew trades to u/t Air Bomber.

It is just a file note to say that he had been considered as a u/t Air Bomber but the evidence is there to show that he continued as a u/t Nav.

His pilot training was at the Elementary Flying Training School. The Attached annotaion has been added after the line was completed by the same hand that recorded the posting below.

Regards
Ross

 

ROSS

Yes I can see the "B" in ACCB is not formed the same as the "B" in A.BMR. Enlarging the image shows that it is definitely an "R" with the tail curled round to form the "O" - hence ACCRO. This now makes far more sense.

Well spotted.

Collers

 

Just a quick query.

Does anyone know the squadron code in use for 40 Squadron in 1944?

I know it's BL something.

Many thanks

Collers

 

Does anyone know the squadron code in use for 40 Squadron in 1944?
Simply BL according to ...
* Air of Authority
* Bob Baxter
* Rob Davis
... for 3 and "What I tell you three times is true." (The Hunting of the Snark, Fit the First, v2, Lewis Caroll)

Steve