Wellington X lost out of Foggia Main Italy

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Collers, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Hi Collers,

    I don't know if you noticed Merlin's 'Italy Maps Sheet 109... Gothic Line' thread (new last night) but TiredOldSoldier supplied some very handy Italian links from two of which I've cobbled together three custom (albeit modern) topo-maps to inform this thread and shared them here:[*]Geoportale Nazionale - one hybrid map of crash area
    • 1:25,000 contour mapping superimposed 50:50 on aerial photography
      (stressing steepness of terrain with relatively few tracks and gullied streams)
    Steve
     
  2. Collers

    Collers Member

    Hi Steve,
    Just had great fun with the Laviano terrain maps - thanks for the links. SE of Laviano was certainly no place to be flying at less than 5,000 ft in heavy cloud with electrical storms and icing.

    My own thoughts now are that LP127 probably arrived in the vicinity of Valmontone but, with 10-10 cloud, aborted the mission as did the other aircraft that night. Obviously they must have jettisoned their bomb load, probably in the sea, because with them still on board the aircraft would have been blown to smithereens when it hit the mountainside. There would have been very little left, if anything, to recover.

    There is a harrowing chapter in "Out of the Italian Night" by Maurice Lihou where he describes flying his Wellington with 37 Sqd. on the same raid out of Foggia Main. On the outward leg the aircraft encountered electrical storms and was crippled by a lightning strike. The plane plummeted 1,000 ft before he regained control only to find all instrumentation out of commission and spinning wildly. They limped back to Foggia through dense cloud by dead reckoning.

    I shall probably never know the actual reason for the loss of my uncle and LP127. It could have been engine failure, Maurice Lihou mentions at least two Wellingtons that lost first one engine and then the second. It may have been electrical storm damage or other mechanical failure with subsequent loss of control. Malfunctioning instruments or disorientation in thick cloud and turbulent conditions, all could have played a part.

    There is also the possibility that a German Ack-Ack unit got lucky with a wild shots into the cloud towards the sound of engines.

    Collers
     
  3. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Thanks yet again Collers,

    It's certainly not a bad idea to occasionally summarise current thinking. But I'm trying to resist underinformed hypothesis whilst we await further evidence. If pressed to do so, however, IGM's maps suggest 2 scenarios to me:
    • A return route going inland via the Golfo di Salerno, over its triangular delta plain and turning N through the Sele valley (as now followed by the SS91). But, whilst probably not impossible, hitting a N-facing mountainside off to one side whilst flying N does seem a tad less than likely!
    • The next most likely route, eastward N of Naples via Benevento, goes nowhere near Laviano - though a sudden 60° turn to starboard from Benevento might send them there on a more believable heading. But why? For such an abrupt & illogical course change to happen over allied territory rather suggests axis night fighter intervention and a new line of enquiry into their claim logs ... no readily-apparent online resources but one of Nicola_G's posts refers to one of Theo Boiten's 2-volumes of Nachtjagd War Diaries (see PS)
    Also, since you again mention Maurice George 'Lee' Lihou's account of that night, I wonder if you've maybe tried contacting his son Peter to ask after heirloom reference material that didn't make into the book. Other websites worth a mention, for anyone yet to find them, are Maurice's Wimpys of 205 Group and The WWII History of James MacIsaac and RAF No. 37 Squadron. Of the latter:
    • As James' 1st op wasn't until 21 Jul '44, we'll be mostly interested in its introductory & appendix pages - though it may reward Barb to explore it all.
    • Apart from Maurice featuring on at least 2 pages, it may be worth quoting from p9 ("Wimpys" in the Mediterranean) para. 8 on navigation - "The weather was dismal, navigation aids were non-existent (no Oboe, no H2S, no radio beams). Initially crews navigated by much the same means as Columbus had - Dead Reckoning, Map reading, Astro Shots etc - and yet the reputation of 205 Group for "spot on" delivery became legend. Weather, icing and navigation were the main enemy, along with flak and night fighters."
    Steve

    PS: Theo recently posted his e-mail address here
     
  4. Collers

    Collers Member

    Hi Steve
    Thanks for all those very interesting links. Not quite sure if Peter Lihou would relish looking at his father's old notes but it's worth a try.

    There is a large amount of information regarding this theatre all helping to add to the overall picture but unfortunately nothing specific for me.
    You mention LP127 crashing onto the north face of a mountainside - where did that come from? Looking at Laviano and the area to the south-east it seems the ridges and valleys run generally in a north-south direction with the sides facing East and West.

    In view of this my take would be that the aircraft flew down to the Salerno golf and then turned inland and northerly intending to find the Sele valley as the safest and lowest route back to Foggia. If the aircraft made this turn a fraction late it would have been flying on a parallel course with the valley but further over in the direction of Laviano.

    Therefore it would have been flying more-or-less parallel with the mountain ridges to the SE of Laviano and would have grazed either a west or east facing mountainside.

    Night fighter intervention and even friendly AA has crossed my mind. A large plane approaching Salerno in heavy cloud and nervous air defence letting off a few shots - who knows?

    Collers
     
  5. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    Hi all - I have been drifting in and out of this thread (basically run out of ways to help) but I just saw Barb's photos and they got me thinking of what else might be of interest to her & possibly Collers.

    The good old Aussie War Memorial has an excellent photo database and here are a couple of piccies that may or may not be of interest....

    Permalink: P04404.002 | Australian War Memorial

    Middle East 1943 - Starboard side view of Wellington Bomber D for Donald, HE109, flown by 40 Squadron RAF.


    Permalink: P04404.001 | Australian War Memorial

    Middle East 1943 - Group portrait of a crew in front of a Wellington bomber of 40 Squadron RAF. Identified left to right: K. Connolly, navigator; Joc [Jock?] Brodie, bomb aimer, holding the mascot dog 'Dutchie'; 412234 Reginald (Reg) Dolden RAAF, pilot; Mike Irwin, rear gunner; Bob Bramhill, wireless operator. Dolden was born in Bexley, NSW, in December 1914 and enlisted in the RAAF on 22 June 1941. He served in the Middle East with 40 Squadron, RAF and was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) for his actions in June and July 1943 flying Wellington bombers over Sardinia and Palermo. Dolden was discharged from service on 7 May 1945 with the rank of Flight Lieutenant.



    PS - searching for "Foggia" shows dozens of shots of the airfield and the local town in 1944 / 45 - might be of interest as background to the conditions they faced on the ground (458 RAAF SQN was also based there at the time)
     
  6. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    You mention LP127 crashing onto the north face of a mountainside - where did that come from? Looking at Laviano and the area to the south-east it seems the ridges and valleys run generally in a north-south direction with the sides facing East and West.
    OK but first, lest anybody take "face" to mean a near-vertical crag, I wrote "N-facing mountainside" as generally referring to the whole flank of M Pennona et al running down into the valley E of Laviano. Much as curtains can be regarded as facing into a room, despite their folds facing every which way, the general fall line of the whole flank is roughly N.

    Referring to my large-scale GN screenshot, I'm regarding the western boundary of this northern flank as the clear-felled shoulder of M Pennona carrying its main ascent track up from Laviano beside "Le Paoule". In case it helps, now I've got my 4shared folder set up, I've added a Google Earth screenshot looking SE of Laviano with the aforesaid shoulder clearly running in from just over half-way up the RH edge. Given that our SE reference could reasonably mean anywhere between ESE & SSE, it's a bit early to start analysing the flank's folds & wrinkles in what amounts to an area well hidden from any aircraft approaching from the S. Or maybe that's all a red herring and LP127 actually struck the far (S) side of M Pennona from Laviano - making a 3-day round trip that much more credible?

    But, as I said, best not speculate too much whilst awaiting evidence - esp. from those eye-witnesses to which Henry Flute has alluded...
    [​IMG]
    Steve
     
  7. Barb20

    Barb20 Member

    Thanks for the pictures Dave, they may well become of use.
     
  8. Collers

    Collers Member

    Hi Dave - Thanks for the links and keeping an interest - every little helps as they say.

    Hi Steve
    The four most significant ranges in the Laviano area are Monte Eremita (1579 m), Monte Pennone (1541 m), Monte Astora (1561 m), Monte Pennacchio (1435 m).

    The nearest of these is Monte Eremita, see Laviano - Valle del Sele e i suoi comuni

    The zoom facility on the map shows the Monte Erimeta range is directly SE of Laviano and is almost certainly the area of the crash. Which particular hill side is another matter of course.

    As you point out, speculation at this point is an indulgence (but interesting). I have sent a further e-mail to Enrico Flauto via the excellent Marco with four specific requests and hopefully something might emerge from this.

    1. The police were involved with recovery of the bodies in 1944. Please can you ask Rocco Falivena if he has reports or old files referring to this.

    2. The bodies were initially interred in Laviano Municipal Cemetery. Are there any cemetery records relating to this?

    3. The crash was reported as south east of Laviano on a wooded mountainside. Is it possible for anyone to be more precise than this?

    4. Did anyone take photographs of the wreck at the time?

    Collers
     
  9. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Sorry Collers but I get the impression you've not been following my recent (mainly 4shared album) links - as automatically underlined by the forum software (having long-ago learnt not to ambiguously underline text to stress it). Perhaps you've yet to get into the habit of mousing over underlined text to see if it turns blue and your pointer change accordingly - same goes for images though they don't go blue.

    In this instance I referred "to my large-scale GN screenshot" before quoting place-names marked on it and from which you'll see, though I've been talking about their combined valley frontage, "M Pennone" is almost a mile (1.4km) nearer Laviano than "M Eremita". A clue to their relative importance to the villagers lies in the names they gave them - much like the Welsh 'Pen' ('head', 'chief', 'supreme', 'end' or 'top') implying prominence, 'Pennone' means 'banner' or 'standard' (c/w 'Eremita' meaning an altogether more retiring 'hermit').

    And, if you're going to indulge me :D, perhaps I ought to cite what prompted my afterthought about LP127 maybe actually hitting the equally-wooded southern slopes as this remarkable account of Wellington LB185 coming to grief in Wales - key sentences:
    "With a layer cloud obscuring the Moon the radio was all important for fixes to establish their position and to that end Sinclair was kept busy." ... "All was routine until the radio packed up. They flew on hoping that the cloud would break or the radio come to life. After six hours of flying and fuel supplies running low, Sergeant Wolman had no choice but to reduce altitude and hope to drop below the cloud to establish their position." ... "Ten minutes later, at 0225 hours, the Wellington hit a rocky outcrop on the summit of 1,500-foot Moel y Croesau (Hill of Crosses) near Trawsfynydd."

    Steve
     
  10. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Not that this probably helps much but the following extract is taken from - Sweeping The Skies. A History of 40 Squadron. by David Gunby.

    Two crews were also lost attacking Italian targets in May. On the 11th 40 carried out the first of three harassing attacks on Porto Ferrajo, Elba. Little opposition was encountered, and the loss of P/O D. M. Cleeve was possibly due to the weather. The same cause was suspected when Sgt F. J. Broad (LP127) failed to return from Valmontone on 24 May, other crews reporting severe electrical storms and icing. Valmontone was attacked because it lay on the route between Rome and Cassino, where an Allied offensive had been launched, and attacks on Viterbo and Subicco were also in support of the new offensive. Targets in the battle area were hard to locate, however, and the results often uncertain.
     
  11. Collers

    Collers Member

    Peter
    Thanks for the quote from "Sweeping The Skies". I've looked for the book on line but it's out of print and very expensive. I shall have to tackle the local library as did Barb.
    Steve
    The story of LB185 underlines just how risky it was flying these machines over hilly terrain in cloud and with no radio signals.

    I'm quite au fait with the function of hyperlinks and I did check out your 4shared album but it didn't function correctly. :unsure: I can only view the initial 490x338 map. If I click the 1600x1103 option it loads a large blank square. Hence the need for me to try to find an alternative because the smaller map size is not clear enough to provide any detail.

    I also tried the download link but it reports the file link is invalid.
    Please explain what I'm doing wrong :( and I'll check it again.

    Collers
     
  12. Varasc

    Varasc Senior Member

    Hi Dave - Thanks for the links and keeping an interest - every little helps as they say.

    Hi Steve
    The four most significant ranges in the Laviano area are Monte Eremita (1579 m), Monte Pennone (1541 m), Monte Astora (1561 m), Monte Pennacchio (1435 m).

    The nearest of these is Monte Eremita, see Laviano - Valle del Sele e i suoi comuni

    The zoom facility on the map shows the Monte Erimeta range is directly SE of Laviano and is almost certainly the area of the crash. Which particular hill side is another matter of course.

    As you point out, speculation at this point is an indulgence (but interesting). I have sent a further e-mail to Enrico Flauto via the excellent Marco with four specific requests and hopefully something might emerge from this.

    1. The police were involved with recovery of the bodies in 1944. Please can you ask Rocco Falivena if he has reports or old files referring to this.

    2. The bodies were initially interred in Laviano Municipal Cemetery. Are there any cemetery records relating to this?

    3. The crash was reported as south east of Laviano on a wooded mountainside. Is it possible for anyone to be more precise than this?

    4. Did anyone take photographs of the wreck at the time?

    Collers

    Hello Collers, hi all,

    It's correct - I translated and sent the above mentioned questions to dr. Flauto, also providing again James' email address. Now we only have to hope for further information.
     
  13. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Righty ho Collers,

    Panic ye not as there's more than one way to skin a cat now I know there's a problem. ;) Going back to the clunkier method I know works, I've zipped up the current album into an 8.5MB archive file for you to download all 4 images in one fell swoop - FoC after a standard 20s wait between pressing 'Download Now' and the 'Download file now' link appearing. Re the supposedly instant-download photo album (all a bit new to me sad to say) I wish I could figure out what, if anything, you may be doing wrong. :confused: Beyond checking the links 4shared gives me work (for me), before passing them on, it's not easy for me to be sure they're also OK for everyone else.

    Hope that works 4U, Steve

    PS: Further to recent discussion of ground staff attitudes, I found another scan of the same LB185 story with F/O Scudamore's related MRT log entry crassly (IMHO) observing, "It will be noted that 6¼ hrs elapsed between the occurrence of the crash and notification of M.R.S. The M.O believes that if information had been received sooner more lives might have been saved." (More on LB185 here, BTW, for anyone interested.)
     
  14. Collers

    Collers Member

    OK Steve - the moggy is well and truly bereft of its furry coat and your files were quickly downloaded after initially opening an account. I now agree with your supposition that Monte Pennone is the most likely crash site and since down-loading your file I came across the following that I think demonstrates the difficulty of recovery.

    Photos and Maps of Laviano

    This map should open in Terrain View with Laviano centred. Switch on Photos and then pan down and click the photo at the summit of Monte Pennone. Now switch the photo off and centre the map on this spot. Now click on Hybrid. Note the convoluted tracks leading from Laviano up and eventually round to the south and southwest side. If you now click Satellite the tracks almost disappear and so are not substantial roads even today and stop well short of the upper slopes.

    Still speculating here of course but if LP127 hit the south or southwest side high up at about 4-5,000 ft while turning in from the coast to search for the Sele Valley route back to Foggia, it is quite feasible recovery could take a three day round trip.

    Hopefully someone from Laviano will confirm this site (or otherwise) in the not too distant future.

    Have a good weekend
    Collers
     
  15. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Good Collers - though 4shared registration shouldn't have been necessary...

    Just to reiterate I'm not yet favouring any of the plateau's summits as more likely than another nor, indeed, any at all over the gaps between - so far only trying to clarify their relative positions in response to your placing M Eremita nearest the village. As I said before, "SE of Laviano" is imprecise enough to fan out 45° (call it ESE-SSE, SE±22½° or 112½-157½° true/magnetic) - covering an awful lot of territory what with LP127's approach direction still being anybody's guess.

    And no the tracks won't have been much improved since this is a nature reserve - not like our Forestry Commission tracks upgraded to suit commercial harvesting operations! Plus most of the trees* here seem naturally wide enough for their canopy to easily meet over and hide great lengths of track from aerial photography in places - one proof of them invisibly joining up, as per the 1:25k map, being this mountain bike trail running 5m S of Laviano & back.

    Finally, for this area, I think you'll find Bing Maps' aerial imagery currently far superior to Google's - as, incidentally, used by your otherwise very handy ReS map find. The drop-down 'Bird's eye'/'Aerial' switch at the top has a 'show labels' tick box for toggling the map overlay so you can really enjoy zooming in to a scale of ~1:1,000**.

    Nuff4now, Steve

    * e.g. [​IMG] & [​IMG]
    ** Optional exercise: Zoom in on the track, roughly where it says "Scala" at the bottom of my GN screenshot and maybe using the clear-felled area as a finger-post to guide you in, and find the 28'-sq red pyramid roof ~100' S of it. And what's that C-shaped thing in the clearing slightly W of ~600yds S of it? Cool huh? (Health warning: Under-informed wreckage-hunting can be addictive, frustrating and most likely fruitless!)
     
  16. Collers

    Collers Member

    Hi Steve
    You're right about Bing Maps - far superior to Google. I located the "C" shaped object but have no idea what it is. If it's on a steepish slope I would have guessed at an observation point - but surrounded by trees ??

    About 1,000ft further down and slightly to the east there is a break in the tree cover and what looks like twin concreted wheel tracks heading upward in its general direction.

    No sign of an LP127 crash site unfortunately.

    Collers
     
  17. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Hi Colliers,

    I've no idea what the C-shaped object is either (it was a rhetorical question anyway) but it's actually in a fairly level area not only surrounded by trees but by hillocks 10-30m higher - as shown on Geoportale Nazionale's 1:25k map. For anyone a bit perplexed by GN's viewer interface, here's my fast-track way in:
    • Start typing "Laviano" into the 'Ricerca veloce' (quick search) box and select 'Laviano, Laviano, CAMPANIA' when it appears
    • Select the 'Immagini' menu and double-click on 'Carta IGM scala 25.000'
    • You now have the map loaded over the aerial photo (as good as Bing's BTW) and the 'Gestioni servizi' menu on the R serves to switch between or mix them - I used ~50% 'Trasperenza' (transparency) in my hybrid screenshot
    As for 'concrete' I suspect that's just white bedrock exposed by use - it is a limestone massif after all said & done.

    Hmm - the more I think about the plateau in relation to a southern approach, the more I doubt LP127 just clearing it to hit a peak not much higher along its northern edge. (NB: Google translates Pennone as Flagpole!) Roll on more data...

    Steve
     
  18. Collers

    Collers Member

    Matteo Pierro from SALERNO AIR FINDERS has e-mailed to report their first search for the crash site of LP127. The mountain area to be searched is quite considerable and heavily wooded in many places and is very difficult terrain. I have copied Matteo's e-mail below for those who are interested.

    Dear Colin,
    I write this letter to inform you about the results of our first try on the crash site.

    Here you can find a reportage:

    http://www.1943salerno.it/ritrovamenti/53-il-bombardiere-inglese-wellington-x-lp127-p.html

    We really tried hard, the site was so big and difficult to explore, we was 6 of us looking for any kind of useful element/item/piece of the plane, but we found just little evidence of it.
    For sure we don't have identified yet the exact impact zone. Some boys are discouraged for the big work we need to do again. But we will try again, don't worry.

    Next time maybe we will go there with the help of more people.
    We need absolutely other hands and equipment to search a so vast field.
    Of course we will let you know about any finding so you can follow the research with us.

    Many thanks for your help.
    Best Regards.
    Matteo Pierro

    The link is to their web-site and the dedicated page they have created for this search.

    For those who are not fluent in Italian, (like me), try the following link for an interpretation of the page. http://uk.babelfish.yahoo.com

    Copy and paste the Italian web-site address into the "Translate a web page" section. MAKE SURE you only have one http:// as this is already entered. Then from the "Select from and to languages" drop down menu click Italian to English. After a short delay it will open the web page with an approximate translation in English.

    This is excellent news from the Salerno Air Finders and I am very grateful to them for their hard efforts. If anyone has been following the foregoing posts from Steve (Red Goblin) and his links to various maps and satellite views they will know who difficult the job is for Matteo and his team.

    I am also indebted to Marco for keeping a watching brief over all this.
    Collers
     
  19. Varasc

    Varasc Senior Member

    Hello Collers,

    Don't lose your hope to find this plane - but in effect, even if my research on the field covers a really different and higher mountain, I knew the difficulties related to such a wild ground, without paths or signals.
    I really think we should all try to delimit the possible crash site with more precision, before to provide a new location to Matteo and his team. Such outdoor researches could be hard and difficult to do. According to me, you should try again with whatever possible witness in Laviano and in the surrounding villages, to 'triangulate' the sources of their tales and locate the wreckage.
     
  20. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Hear hear, Marco, we ought indeed be more usefully proactive than just sitting around to "follow the research" - if only for the sake of MP's "discouraged" "boys" morale and seemingly for the want of a bit more sharing on their part:
    • Top question in my mind is "dove?" - "where" exactly (inc. stratification) did they find that evidently torn & sooty fragment? That alone is proof positive, in my book, that we're on the right track and pinpointing its location would greatly inform our scouring maps & photos to help steer the team toward its likely origin. Don't they use GPS to thus log their finds? (if trees block reception, after all, just measure off a nearby clearing fix - hardly rocket science)
    • The 3 search photos seem to have been taken in a young stand of beech trees on the S side (note moss/lichen on their trunks) of a fairly modest hillock/ridge (clear horizon behind it in #3) with atypically damp ground beside a track at its foot (thicket & tan strip beyond MR in #3 + lilies/docks? in #1) - mostly suggesting to me one of the manifold minor valleys up on the plateau
    • In lieu of an exact fix, confirmation of when #3 was taken would help orientate it more exactly by the pair of trunk shadows directly uphill of MR
    • Closer inspection of the fragment (from a variety of angles as yet forthcoming) should serve to yield more of its history in relation to the whole - e.g. extent of soot to order events. And how/when did the sooty/oily deposit get to be scratched like that?
    • Is removal of military wreckage banned by law in Italy, as it is here in the UK, so we may expect the bulk of it not to have been taken away for scrap? If not it may well have been long-since 'recycled' - e.g. any suspiciously-geodesic poly-tunnels thereabout? *
    • And an accurate, preferably verbatim, account of Antonietta's recollections wouldn't be such a bad idea either
    Steve

    * Effectively answered by 3rd paragraph of the team's mission page - translated here as:
    "Find the point at which an aircraft fell is almost never going to be easy. During the years of World War II in Campania and nearby it fell to dozens. Of those precipitated in the centers is almost impossible to trace if not ritrovarne in the memory of a witness or in history books. The aircraft crashed in the countryside or mountains our region are now disappeared. In fact, the precious aluminium were made, of which constituted a temptation too strong as they lived in that troubled period. For this reason also the aircraft fell in the most inaccessible areas have been dismembered and carried downstream for noble metal could be resold as scrap to smelters. The reader must then consider how you can retrieve a felling site plane are countless shards of metal, plastic and wood. Yet from these tiny fragments was almost always possible to identify the type of aircraft and, at times, also thanks to the valuable collaboration of institutions and individuals, who composed his crew."
     

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