Wellington X lost out of Foggia Main Italy

Subject: Sergeant Navigator Frank Henry Baker 1399299 40 sqd RAFVR

Hi. I am hoping to learn more about the death of my uncle and I am so pleased to have found this site. I already know quite a bit but I am hoping for more information.

Frank joined the RAFVR circa 1941/42 and his Wellington LP127-P was reported missing on the night of 24/25 May 1944. The squadron were flying out of Foggia Main on a mission to bomb roads around the town of Valmontone south of Rome. The weather was atrocious and the 9 returning planes reported icing down to 3000ft and 10/10 cloud cover with no clear sight of the target.

According to Agostino Alberti of the Italian site AircrashPO, the Wellington crashed into a hillside SE of a town called Laviano. If this is correct the plane was horrendously off target by something like 200 km too far south. What on earth was it doing down there and, as navigator, could it have been my poor uncle's fault? I can't believe that navigators could head 200 km in completely the opposite direction.

Can any kind person shed some light on this sad event for me please?

Thanks in anticipation

 

Hi & welcome,

I'm probably one of many here also trying to investigate the crash of a relative's Wellington and there are others doing so on an industrial level for non-relatives so you can probably look forward to some expert assistance from some of them!

Some will no doubt question your sources - "Have you read the ORB?" etc - in order to find out where else they may suggest you look. So it may pay you to forestall them with a bit more detail. Nor neglect picture power. What I did, for example, was to plot all my key points in Google Earth and draw lines between them on a screenshot imported into a graphics editor - 2 examples in my LB222 album - and I'd suggest you do something similar to illustrate your description so people may more easily visualise your conundrum. Actually, to tell the truth, I've been asked to repeat the exercise adding info that has since come to light so also be prepared to go round that loop more than once.

Blindly speculating about the degree of error you've cited, though with night-navigation presumably heavily depending on the compass in enemy territory (in lieu of radio beacons), there's always the possibility that it simply misled your uncle. Compass needles have been known to spontaneously flip polarity for instance - even more commonly if triggered by a mechanical shock (akin to the way a steel rod may be magnetised by hammering). And what's more, I can cite a bizarre variation of that happening to an instructor I knew who wandered around a fairly featureless mid-Welsh mountain area, very much disoriented for the better part of a day, after his compass needle went off by a queer angle of ~60° IIRC. He related the story to us, BTW, as justification for always carrying a spare. And then there are those probably-irrelevant stories of metal objects upsetting compasses by being placed too near. :twocents:

Oh yes, and don't forget to search the forum for similar cases.

TTFN, Steve

 

Hi Steve and many thanks for your response.

It's nice not to be alone in a quest and to find help from people with more experience. I take your point regarding a mis-behaving compass and wonder if Wellingtons had a back-up'

OK so I need to work up a graphic to illustrate the mystery and also post the info I already have.

Thanks for your advice

(I keep thinking bout that poor chap roaring up and down the Welsh valleys wondering where the heck he was - nasty business)

Colin

 

Collers
That the weather was atrocious is not an exaggeration as the big Operation Diadem
was on it;s way for a week of relatively Good weather after the winter blasts - we were sitting at Presenzano south of Cassino when we were hit by a mountain side descending on us- which took a week to clean up and thus missed the opening of that operation,which had started around the 11th May '44

Valmontone of course was the target for the US 5th Army to act as the Anvil for our hammer approaching from the South - and as History relates - Clark turned towards Rome
allowing two German armies to escape - how an aircraft finished so far off course will probably remain a mystery
Cheers

 

Whoops, oh no no no no no! Oh, deary me, no! First, to prevent nightmares, my instructor friend was on foot - sorry but I first wrote "mountain instructor" and then deleted the adjective to avoid repetition with its later use in describing his location. Even mid-Wales isn't so featureless as to sustain daytime confusion for that long at flying speeds but it's a fair cop - mea culpa!

Re the Wimpy carrying a spare compass, I suspect not - the sole reference to one, in the popularly-reproduced AP1578C 'Pilot's Notes for Wellington III, X, XI, XII, XIII & XIV' (Jan '44 2nd ed), being in fig. 1 (pilot's instrument panel - on p8 of this transcript). Fig. 3 (p10 of the transcript) also illustrates it w/o relabelling it. Being a standard instrument, it was sufficient to merely indicate its location - end of story with nothing to indicate a mu-metal box shielding another.

 

Thanks for your post Tom and a very warm hello to someone who was there amongst it all.

Well you've now given me a good laugh Steve - excuse me for being a bit dim.

Here are the facts as I understand them.

From Air/27 National Archives 40 Sdn were briefed to bomb roads in the vicinity of Valmontone on the evening of 24th May 1944. The weather was very bad with storms and heavy cloud cover. Ten Wellingtons left the airfield 21-50 and 22-10 and Frank's Wellington, LP.127-P left at 22-08. Nine planes returned between midnight and 2-00 a.m. and all reported aborted missions due to impossible weather conditions. Typical log entries were, "Unable to reach target owing to weather". Icing encountered and went down to 3,000 feet." "Target not reached owing to severe icing conditions." "Target area reached but bombs not released owing to 10/10 cloud." Frank's plane did not return and the log entry simply states, "Aircraft missing - no news."

The crew are all interred at the Salerno War Cemetery in adjacent plots.

Prof. Agostino Alberti from the CrashPO website kindly informed me that LP.127-P crashed into a hillside to the SE of Laviano.

This presents a problem because the aircraft had apparently travelled in the opposite direction to the intended course and crashed approximately 200 km from the target.

I have applied to RAF Cranwell for the release of his records but to date I have heard nothing.

I am grateful to Steve for pointing out the fickleness of relying on just a compass when conditions are bad but never-the-less, 200 km is a long long way off course.

I have uploaded a map showing the positions but am not sure how to include it in this post - will try later.

I wonder whether the course set was initially southerly before turning west and north in order to avoid the Apennine Mountain range encountered on a direct flight between Foggia and Valmontone. These are 4/6000ft in places and with bad weather and icing down to low altitudes it might be a more sensible alternative.
If anyone can offer any further information I would be very grateful.

Collers

 

• Just to revise my post saying "there's always the possibility that it simply misled your uncle", FTR, I now realise it was the pilot who would have been misled instead - into misapplying your uncle's correct map-based directions
• You've apparently checked AIR 27/413 (40 Sqn: ORB 1944) but how about AIR 27/416 (40 Sqn: ORB appendices 1944-49) for further info?
• The main thing you seem to be missing/wanting is the accident report - so, assuming there was one, where next to check:DoRIS should have these aircraft records on microfilm:RAF Aircraft Delivery Card - declaring it missing & when
• RAF Aircraft Movement Card - giving general history
• RAF Accident Record Card - giving brief details
• RAF Accident Report - probably not but you'll never know if you don't ask!

[*]RAF Air Historical Branch (contact details oddly only here)
NB: Ringing recently, I was told their e-mail system was indefinitely SNAFU so best to ring and discuss how to lodge query for anything more they may have
[*]Some foreign shore - depending on who was in the crew...
[*]So, what about Frank's so-far-anonymous crewmates? Were any of them, by any chance, Australian? One of my cousin-1's crew was and that's what cracked it for me because the NAA had digitised his casualty file - complete with (and this may have just been sheer dumb luck) a copy of the RAF Accident Report. And that's why I was ringing the AHB - to offer them this key info missing from their records.

 

Collers

It is entirely possible that the route from Foggia was due West towards Salerno as the mountains were much lower before they really started to rise around Campobasso and then proceed North skirting the Western Appennines towards Valmontone - they more than likely didn't make the turn North on time - just a thought but not many Wellingtons in those days would tackle high mountains- even in May...
Cheers

 

"So, what about Frank's so-far-anonymous crewmates? Were any of them, by any chance, Australian? One of my cousin-1's crew was and that's what cracked it for me because the NAA had digitised his casualty file - complete with (and this may have just been sheer dumb luck) a copy of the RAF Accident Report. And that's why I was ringing the AHB - to offer them this key info missing from their records. "



I had a look through what records / links I have to hand and so far I can't see any Aussie involvement in the crew of this aircraft.

Which is a pity, because as stated it does open up a few different research possibilities.

Any chance of Canadian involvement? I have so far read one file for an RCAF casualty and it is pretty thorough. I am waiting for another couple from a Canadian source that will hopefully resolve some otherf cases I am looking into.

Edit 1 - a search of the CWGC database shows 5 airmen in a collective grave:


BAKER, FRANK HENRY Sergeant 1399299 25/05/1944 24 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom Coll. grave II. D. 41-43. SALERNO WAR CEMETERY

BARTRAM, RICHARD ROY CLEMENTS Sergeant 1604379 25/05/1944 30 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom Coll. grave II. D. 41-43. SALERNO WAR CEMETERY

BROAD, FREDERICK JOHN Sergeant 1800908 25/05/1944 22 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom Coll. grave II. D. 41-42. SALERNO WAR CEMETERY

DESICO, PASCAL ALBERT JOSEPH Warrant Officer Class I R/144997 25/05/1944 Royal Canadian Air Force Canadian Coll. grave II. D. 41-43. SALERNO WAR CEMETERY

NUTTYCOMBE, KENNETH JAMES Sergeant 1693660 25/05/1944 21 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom Coll. grave II. D. 41-43. SALERNO WAR CEMETERY

 

Very interesting!, welcome, Collers.

I also found the wreck of a Vickers Wellington, LN466 from 142 Sqn, lost on the Western Alps at a great distance from its target, a ball-bearing factory in Turin. Reading the memories, books and essays about that night, and speaking with a direct witness (the navigator of an other Wellington who was able to come back alive), I have no doubt of the enormous error of navigation that a crew could take, especially in stormy and icy flights.

If I may help you with the Italian language, don't hesitate to contact me.

I may only suggest to read this nice book, "Out of the Italian Night" by Maurice G. Lihou, directly concerning the Wellington's operation in Italy, also from Foggia.

Out of the Italian Night: Wellington Bomber Operations 1944-45 Airlife's Classics: Amazon.co.uk: Maurice Lihou: Books

Pen and Sword Books: Out of the Italian Night by Maurice G Lihou

Best regards,

Marco

 

Steve/Tom

Wow! Many leads to follow now - thanks very much.http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=855&pictureid=4976

List of crew follows

BROAD, FREDERICK JOHN
Sergeant
1800908
25/05/1944
22
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
United Kingdom
Coll. grave II. D. 41-42.
SALERNO WAR CEMETERY
BAKER, FRANK HENRY
Sergeant
1399299
25/05/1944
24
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
United Kingdom
Coll. grave II. D. 41-43.
SALERNO WAR CEMETERY
BARTRAM, RICHARD ROY CLEMENTS
Sergeant
1604379
25/05/1944
30
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
United Kingdom
Coll. grave II. D. 41-43.
SALERNO WAR CEMETERY
DESICO, PASCAL ALBERT JOSEPH
Warrant Officer Class I
R/144997
25/05/1944
Royal Canadian Air Force
Canadian
Coll. grave II. D. 41-43.
SALERNO WAR CEMETERY
NUTTYCOMBE, KENNETH JAMES
Sergeant
1693660
25/05/1944
21
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
United Kingdom
Coll. grave II. D. 41-43.
SALERNO WAR CEMETERY


I have checked Canadian records but it's not straight forward because Canadian records for RAF attached airman are apparently held somewhere else.

This should be a location map but not smart enough to make it work yet.


I shall probably be a while checking on all the leads.

Many thanks

Collers

 

Dave/Marco

I think your very welcome posts arrived while I was slowly compiling my previous reply

Thanks for the references for further research.

I had no idea this site could be so informative.

Marco thanks for your offer of help with the Italian language if needed.

Kind regards

Collers

 

“I have checked Canadian records but it's not straight forward because Canadian records for RAF attached airman are apparently held somewhere else.”

Hmmmm - don’t know anything about that. I will resurrect another thread of mine on a similar subject to see if I can entice comment from some of the Canadian experts.

From what I have seen, Aussie & Canuck records are a lot easier to access / get copies of than their UK equivalents - are RAF records slow to procure like the British army ones??

Item Display - Second World War Service Files: Canadian Armed Forces War Dead - Library and Archives Canada


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/service-records/43116-second-world-war-service-files-canadian-armed-forces-war-dead.html

 

are RAF records slow to procure like the British army ones

I've yet to take in the overnight flood of feedback about LP127-P's route D Collers!) but, to quickly field that, maybe but not potentially quite so much. The RAF (and WAAF for that matter) mostly rationalised each individual's record by copying it onto a single folded card whereas the Army apparently didn't - potentially leading to more delay in Glasgow rounding it all up (and not always successfully I might add).

And yes, re Canadian records, I did try looking there for some info to inform Nicola_G's X3757 case - only to be similarly disappointed after my unexpected Ozzie coup (images 38 & 39 for accident report).

PS: Following your Archives Canada link, I now recall the similarity with the NAA in that they rely on someone being interested enough to pay them to digitise it and thenceforth freely share it with the rest of us. It was certainly the case that my Aussie Observer's file hadn't been digitised back in 2007 when I first checked it and it was only by chance that I was referred back to it in 2011 - by when it had (by person or persons unknown). Obviously I'm lucky enough to have someone else digging alongside me and I'd love to know who... Note, however, that the NAA have two records for Sydney James LLOYD - one (his casualty file) digitised and the other (presumably his service record) not. So, unless the Canadians kept all that stuff together (without thus splitting it) it would seem DESICO's service record may yet have the potential to disappoint.
("I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?" 'Dirty' Harry Callahan)

 

I've yet to take in the overnight flood of feedback about LP127-P's route D Collers!) but, to quickly field that, maybe but not potentially quite so much. The RAF (and WAAF for that matter) mostly rationalised each individual's record by copying it onto a single folded card whereas the Army apparently didn't - potentially leading to more delay in Glasgow rounding it all up (and not always successfully I might add).

And yes, re Canadian records, I did try looking there for some info to inform Nicola_G's X3757 case - only to be similarly disappointed after my unexpected Ozzie coup (images 38 & 39 for accident report).

The Aussies were not spoilt as children! They like to share for free

Cheers

Geoff

 

Hi Collers,

Good luck with this search!
If you want, you may subscribe and post your request for info in this Italian specialized forum, Archeologi dell'Aria (Aviation archeologists):

Archeologi dell'Aria - Indice

 

Good evening all.

Been out most of the day and only just returned - same again tomorrow unfortunately so not much chance for research.:mellow:

Marco - thanks for the link to Archeolgi dell'Aria. I have registered and am waiting for acceptance by the administrator. This will open up another area of knowledge and hopefully someone may know something regarding the crash. I may have to take you up on your generous offer of language help if I get any responses.

Steve - I am waiting for a quote from the National Archives regarding 40 Sqdn records in AIR 27/416. I have asked only for details relevant to my research and not the whole file. I also checked AIR 14/4144 for Bomber Command losses in May 1944 and am waiting for a quote on this too. The data recorded on the cards normally includes the names of the crew, their fate, the route taken and bomb load. In some cases information from survivors has also been added. I have also had a preliminary brush with the Royal Airforce Museum but this requires further input by me.

Once again thanks for the advice from everyone - annoying that I won't have a chance to do very much more before Friday

Best to all

Collers

 

DAVE
Have tried the Canadian link you gave and I see what you mean - it's a bit muddly. I'm not quite sure how to obtain the info I require. Probably me being a bit dense so I will have to examine the site more closely.

Thanks for the tip

Collers

 

DAVE - Have tried the Canadian link you gave and I see what you mean - it's a bit muddly. I'm not quite sure how to obtain the info I require. Probably me being a bit dense so I will have to examine the site more closely.

Thanks for the tip

Collers


At least we can both be dense together - I thought I finally had it worked out then I noticed that they wanted payment in Canadian dollars without any link to an option to pay via VISA or Paypal so I gave up and contracted a researcher to do it for me (and hopefully at a better price as he will bypass some of the fluff on the file that is of no importance to me).

He also said that some time ago a lot of these files had restricted access but are now pretty open in the case of deceased personnel.

Since you seem to be taking this pretty seriously I might tack the listed RCAF casualty onto my little list of files and see what the researcher can obtain.

He should be going in to the archives late next week.

cheers


Dave