Wehrmacht Surface to Air units

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Herroberst, Aug 9, 2006.

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  1. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    Was interested in Luftwaffe Surface to air missile units late in the war. Anyone know any info about them? Did they have multiple operational units? I remember hearing about a prototype knocking down a B-17 box.
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Some German Rockets that could fit the bill? from Gander & Chamberlains excellent 'Small Arms, Artillery & Special Weapons of the 3rd Reich':
    Luftfaust Don't believe it was used.
    7.3cm Fohn-Gerat:35x7.3cm rockets, static or on Flak18 carriage, issued in late 1944.
    10.5cm Raketenwerfer: 16x10.5cm rockets on Flak18 carriage (1 built) and naval mounting (1 built), plans for panther mounting.
    15.2cm Kz.1000 (kp) : AA Rocket on a parachute, little known.
    Taifun spin-stabilised AA missile fired in batches of 30 from converted Flak18,36,37 carriage 600 completed before end of war, some reportedly used in action.
    Rheinochter R-I - Intended as a radio controlled AA missile, actually used as a research rocket.
    Rheinochter R-IIIf - RC 2 stage AA missile - experimental.
    Schmetterling - RC subsonic AA missile designed by Doctor Heinrici. 150 built for various tests, 25 launched in troop trials.
    Enzian - RC Subsonic AA missile designed by DR. Walther Konrad. 38 test-fired, no record of operational use.

    Don't know if that will help in finding units but possibly, if you're interested in more than the bare bones above, most have fuller technical descriptions, range, length etc.
    You'll have to dig on the web for pictures (as I couldn't be arsed )but the last few are quite substantial single missiles that do look remarkably like later SAM's.

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  3. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    Thanks Adam, I'll have to check out that book,
    'Small Arms, Artillery & Special Weapons of the 3rd Reich'

    I've got one somewhere that was about an operational(so they say) unit that successfully hit a B-17 box from the ground...but maybe I'm getting old.

    Kind of cold in the South Pole, He He He:D

    Cheers,

    Pete
     
  4. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Thanks Adam, I'll have to check out that book,
    'Small Arms, Artillery & Special Weapons of the 3rd Reich'

    I've got one somewhere that was about an operational(so they say) unit that successfully hit a B-17 box from the ground...but maybe I'm getting old.

    Kind of cold in the South Pole, He He He:D

    Cheers,

    Pete

    Have you seen this site Pete?

    German Secret Weapons of WWII
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Get yourself a copy mate, I'd call it the standard work on Nazi weapons both issued and experimental, published in 1978 it tends to go on ebay for £20-30, worth every penny, one of those books that's crying out for bringing back into print. Exceptionally rare that something Large or Small is not in there and designations for nearly all captured weapons are included.
    Cheers,
    Adam.
    View attachment 298
     
  6. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    Good info Thanks Guys, I enjoyed the site placed it in my favorites for later.
     
  7. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Get yourself a copy mate, I'd call it the standard work on Nazi weapons both issued and experimental, published in 1978 it tends to go on ebay for £20-30, worth every penny, one of those books that's crying out for bringing back into print. Exceptionally rare that something Large or Small is not in there and designations for nearly all captured weapons are included.
    Cheers,
    Adam.
    View attachment 298
    VP did you ever get the Purnell books/booklets, they were seperate to Purnell's history of the second world war. They were 75- 80p at the time with drawings by John Bachelor. I would like to see them in print again. Some titles were Warplanes of world war 2 , German secret weapons, I think warships of world war 2. Veritable feast of pics and info.
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    VP did you ever get the Purnell books/booklets, they were seperate to Purnell's history of the second world war. They were 75- 80p at the time with drawings by John Bachelor. I would like to see them in print again. Some titles were Warplanes of world war 2 , German secret weapons, I think warships of world war 2. Veritable feast of pics and info.

    Remember them well from Sprogdom, still crop up in 2nd hand shops bargain boxes don't they, I'm a great fan of Batchelor illustrations, strong nostalgia for me. What books from that period illustrate really well is how much the quality of photo reproduction has improved in modern books, I've got quite a few that I'd love to have given a modern 'makeover' to bring the grainy pics up to scratch. Bring on 'publishing on demand' I say!
     
  9. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Remember them well from Sprogdom, still crop up in 2nd hand shops bargain boxes don't they, I'm a great fan of Batchelor illustrations, strong nostalgia for me. What books from that period illustrate really well is how much the quality of photo reproduction has improved in modern books, I've got quite a few that I'd love to have given a modern 'makeover' to bring the grainy pics up to scratch. Bring on 'publishing on demand' I say!
    Ah, a kindred spirit. It was the cut away drawings and technical input, that made these a favourite with me. Weapons and Warfare and similar didn't hold the same interest for me.
     
  10. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    Schmetterling - RC subsonic AA missile designed by Doctor Heinrici. 150 built for various tests, 25 launched in troop trials.


    Was going to start a new thread for this:

    YouTube - Schmetterling Missile
     
  11. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Senior Member

    I have never seen any source that documented any of the various German surface to air rockets or missiles actually being operationally deployed. The two big SAMs that were in some stage of development, Schmetterling and Wasserfall, never got beyond a few prototypes and test launches.
    You can always go over to the luft46 site (aka Luftwaffe wet dream fantasy site) for some details on many of these systems.
    As far as a deployable SAM goes, Germany was at least a year from any useful system at the end of the war. Wasserfall had serious mechanical and structurial problems and both it and the Schmetterling were held up by an inability of the engineers to come up with a really practical guidance system and a Luftwaffe requirement that that system be unjammable.
     
  12. Wespe

    Wespe Junior Member

    I have never seen any source that documented any of the various German surface to air rockets or missiles actually being operationally deployed. The two big SAMs that were in some stage of development, Schmetterling and Wasserfall, never got beyond a few prototypes and test launches.
    You can always go over to the luft46 site (aka Luftwaffe wet dream fantasy site) for some details on many of these systems.
    As far as a deployable SAM goes, Germany was at least a year from any useful system at the end of the war. Wasserfall had serious mechanical and structurial problems and both it and the Schmetterling were held up by an inability of the engineers to come up with a really practical guidance system and a Luftwaffe requirement that that system be unjammable.

    Yes, I would agree on that, it would have taken Germany surely until late 45 to get SAM's operational "and" effective. Maybe the shot down B-17 is more (if ever happened) due to the air-air missle Ruhrstahl/Kramer x4, which was officially not introduced to the Lw in 45, but had been tested extensivly.
    Regards
    Wespe
     

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  13. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Senior Member

    The X-4 was absolutely awful as a AAM system. Its use of a wire guidance / joystick system made it no more accurate than an unguided rocket. A simple comparison would be to first generation wire-guided anti-tank missiles like the Sagger or Cobra. These had hit rates around 30 to 50% against moving tanks with operators that had made literally thousands of practice launches. And, they had the advantage of telescopic sights, a slower target moving in essentially only two dimensions versus three.
    I would opinion that had the X-4 become operational pilots largely would have refused to use it in combat.
     
  14. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    I've got to dig up my Ballantines German Secret Weapons. I seem to recall some info pertaining to Wehrmacht SAMs. Glad to see the old thread back in action.
     

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