weapons shortage

Also found this interesting.

15. T.S.S. MANXMAN 1 Launched 15-6-1904 Gross Tonnage 2029.69 Length (BP) 334ft. Pass Acc 1st Class 1155, 3rd Class 865. Built for the Midland Railway Company she sailed on the Douglas - Heysham route before requisitioned by the Admiralty on 17-4 –1916. Being converted to a sea plane carrier she contributed to naval aviation by "flying off Sopwith Pup Fighters from her decks, although these had to land on the sea, where, supported by flotation bags they awaited to be hoisted on board again. The Steam Packet Co bought her when she was released from war service converting her to an oil burner the first Steam Packet Company ship to use oil fuel. In World War 2, again requisitioned, she served as a personnel carrier evacuating troops from Dunkirk and North West France. At Cherbourg fully ladened with troops and ammunition she only managed to escape from the harbour with the aid of a destroyer despatched specially to cover her evacuation, which fired upon a column of Panzers attacking along the quayside. Commissioned as HMS CADACEUS in 1941 she was converted to radio detection finding ship. At the end of the War converted as a personnel carrier, she ferried troops and refugees from Europe to England, finally being scrapped by I.O.M.S.P.Co In 1949

 

My Dad served in the RAF in South Wales in the period after Dunkirk and prior to the formation of the RAF Regiment. He said that they used Canadian Ross rifles, as there were a lot of them around but he didn't rate them against a Lee Enfield

 

im trying to figure out

after dunkirk the uk were very short of arms. rifles, guns, tanks, trucks but it was mostley the B.E.F who were equiped at dunkirk.

the US sent us a million rifles, surely they could have sent alot more and better at that time. if they did why anounce it was a million ww1 rifles.

ive seen some figures before on this forum that states we had quite a few AA's, guns, cannons tanks etc after dunkirk. but again i read there was only one armed division montys.

sapper adds that he only had 1 bullet. were were all the rest i find it hard to believe with our industry and our build upto wwII that after a few months we had nothing.

if the battle of france had continued for a few more months are we to say that the uk troop would have run out.

isnt it the case that we had the equipment but was supplied to our other allies

thanks

One point, the British forces were ill prepared for the Second World War in terms of technology and armaments due to the economy and thinking that a European war could not happen again.Of course there was the appeasers but when the Luffewaffe was unveiled in 1935, the RAF expansion was just about stirring and the the RAF as we know it came into force with the new structure of Commands.However little happened with the Army until it was realised by the politicians that from 1938 that German intentions involved military might in order to be the leading power in Europe. The Home Office began to think and issue guidance about the safety of civilians from air and gas attack.The Territorial recruitment stirred but military service legislation was not on the statute book until May 1939 and that only envisaged short term service.So from 1938 things began to stir and anybody having some connection with clothing manufacture would have known from 1938 there was indication that war was likely as large contracts were being given to clothing manufacturers as a large army was to be equipped.

When war did come ..........

 

When war did come, Britain found itself deficient of up to date weapons and equipment especially after its experience of the BEF against the Blitzkreig.After the materiel losses at Dunkirk, it became a priority to arm its defences and equip its forces with whatever there was in the arms market.that is, availability was the first priority.Any arms exports from Britain were also reviewed and diverted to the more important home market.

British Arms Purchasing teams were already in the US ordering equipment for rapid delivery.Some French Government equipment ordered from US manufacturers such as aircraft was diverted to Britain when the French Government fell in 1940.

In a separate agreement, Britain received 50 ex World War 1 obsolete destroyers from the US Government in exchange for leasing British naval bases in the Carribean, Newfoundland, Bermuda and the Bahamas.

The million exWorld War 1 rifles, some of which were still in use as late as the 1950s (although would not be used in front line duty) had been manufactured by various US sub contractors and were stamped "1917".I think they were .303 calibre but will stand corrected.However I think these rifles were part of the destroyer package.

Lease Lend did not commence until 1941 but by March 1941 the US as a neutral were providing a steady stream of equipment and war materiel to Britain, the path aided by Roosevelt who eased US legislation to accomplish this.

 

Remington and Winchester built Pattern 14 rifles in .303 for Britain until the U.S. entered the war in 1917. Thereafter the rifles, some 2,200,000 of them, were chambered for the U.S. .30-caliber cartridge and designated Model 1917.

The rifles sent to Britain from American armories in WWII were most certainly chambered for the .30. The British painted a two-inch red stripe around the butt to denote this chambering.

Attempting to load a .303 rimmed cartridge in a .30 chamber led to nothing more than a minor jam, the reverse usually demanding the services of an armorer. (ouch).

JT

 

Remington and Winchester built Pattern 14 rifles in .303 for Britain until the U.S. entered the war in 1917. Thereafter the rifles, some 2,200,000 of them, were chambered for the U.S. .30-caliber cartridge and designated Model 1917.

The rifles sent to Britain from American armories in WWII were most certainly chambered for the .30. The British painted a two-inch red stripe around the butt to denote this chambering.

Attempting to load a .303 rimmed cartridge in a .30 chamber led to nothing more than a minor jam, the reverse usually demanding the services of an armorer. (ouch).

JT

SO what was essentially the 1917 Springfield (based omn a Mauser action was it?) chambered for the .303 round?


Pften wonder what wouls happen if you put a .3 round in an .303 gun.

Kev

 

SO what was essentially the 1917 Springfield (based omn a Mauser action was it?) chambered for the .303 round?

Kev

The M1917 is called an Enfield, not Springfield, perhaps as a tribute to its birthplace, and it's chambered for the .30. The British Pattern 14 is .303. Yes, it's a Mauser action.

JT

 

The P 14 rifle was described as a British experimental rifle adapted for .303 calibre in limited use only.The rifle I was aware of was a Remington Rand and was in British military service in the 1950s being one of the weapons, I suspect, supplied by the US at the start of the Second World War and stamped "1917".

The US equivalent was said to be designated as the M17 Enfield which had the .300 calibre which appears to be referred to as the M 1917.

 

thanks all.

interesting to read that the US were suppling the french with planes !! were these all one type that they supplied the uk, ussr etc.

the field guns machine guns etc were they of ww1 era or modern what were they like.

what about other things such as granades, planes, tanks etc is there a list of what they leant us..

 

The French in 1940 were receiving US P-36 (termed Hawk 75A for export) fighters, A-20 (export DB-7) bomber, as the two main types among others. Most of the equipment ordered never made it to France and the orders were instead taken over by Britain. Some of the equipment was put into first line service like the Martin Maryland bomber, some into secondary fronts (the Hawk 75's went to India and fought in the CBI through mid-war), while others were given lessor roles as trainers or target tugs like the SBC Cleveland.

 

I did notice in the Omaha documentary where it showed the build up for D Day, there was shots of P38s arriving in Britain in a dismantled state.I think that in reality these were aircraft which may have been purchased in the early part of the war by British Purchasing Teams in March 1940 and the shots themselves were of the aircraft being unloaded at Liverpool in December 1941

If they were intended for USAAF units, no doubt they were destined for Burtonwood for final assembly.On the other hand, after evaluation at Boscombe, the first P38 Lightning production types for the RAF which were the part of the order of 143 was rejected by the RAF and transferred to the USAAF as the P 322. A further large order of 524 of P38 Lightning aircraft for August 1942 was cancelled by the Britain.

 

The Army had been significantly increasing its expenditure since 1934 though from a low base. The lack of military spending is ofton given as a reason for the early defeats of the army and Chamberlains government blamed. A little known fact is that the Army had been unable to spend all the money allocated to it every year from 1934 on due to industrial reasons such as a shortage of skilled manpower.

Expenditure in £000s

1934 39,603
1935 44,515
1936 54,529
1937 78,141
1938 121,361
1939 243,638

From - British Rearmamant and the Treasury - G.C.Peden