War Establishments

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by DavidW, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Can anyone point me towards War establishments for the HQ of an Infantry Division and Armoured Division 1940 - 1942.

    Thanks,
    David.
     
  2. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    David

    Could come back with information later.
    Any details regarding theatre?

    Aixman
     
  3. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    There's only Volume II for HQ of a Div as far as I could tell;

    II/1931/1/2 - Jun38
    II/1931/1/3 - Feb40
    II/1/4 - Aug41

    A few ME specific ones for Armd Div HQ;

    I/1931/1A/2 - Nov39
    I/1931/1A/3 - May40

    VI/1931/35/1 - (HQ Armd Div, Egypt) - Nov39
    VI/558/2 - (HQ/Def Tp, ME) - Aug42

    I couldn't find trace of VI/558/1, and there are a few ME tables with the same issue. I'm guessing David is still working through North Africa so the ME ones would be appropriate ;)

    Gary
     
  4. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    Looking up everything containing "Division" and "Headquarters" until the end of 1942:

    __________________
    Volume/Table/Version
    Pages
    A.C.I.
    Effective
    Name
    _________
    II/1931/1/1
    4
    25.05.1932

    Headquarters of a Division

    _________
    II/1931/1/2
    7
    29.06.1938

    Headquarters of a Division

    _________
    II/1931/1/3
    7
    28.02.1940

    Headquarters of a Division

    _________
    II/1/4
    5
    08.10.1941
    25.08.1941
    Headquarters of a Division

    __________
    V/1931/18/1
    3
    08.01.1941

    Headquarters of a Division (Home)

    __________
    II/48/1
    4
    10.12.1941
    01.12.1941
    Headquarters of a Division (Lower Establishment)

    __________
    I/1931/1A/1
    9
    19.10.1938

    Headquarters of a Mobile Division

    __________
    I/1931/1A/2
    11
    01.11.1939

    Headquarters of an Armoured Division

    __________
    VI/1931/35/1
    3
    15.11.1939

    Headquarters Armoured Division (Egypt)

    _________
    I/1931/1A/3
    10
    15.05.1940

    Headquarters of an Armoured Division

    I/1A/4
    10
    15.07.1942
    28.06.1942
    Headquarters of an Armoured Division

    _________
    II/100/2
    10
    23.09.1942
    26.08.1942
    Headquarters of an Armoured Division

    _________
    VI/558/2
    6
    07.10.1942
    15.08.1942
    Headquarters and Defence Troop of an Armoured Division, Middle East

    Regarding VI/558: I have versions 2 and 4 at hand, but no version 3. Version 1 might be found by renumbering. Having been to Kew last week, I might find a hint in some 3,700 new photos …

    Aixman
     
  5. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    I'd forgotten that VI/558/* skips /3 as well as /1, though that could well have been renumbered from VI/35/1; from memory they are pretty different I think? Likewise, VI/560/* also skips /3, while VI/1004/2, VI/673/2, VI/1059/2 all omit the /1 in the WE indices. I suspect the bookkeeping in ME was a little more 'relaxed' than Home WEs, as there are a couple of important gaps I could never fill in.

    Gary
     
  6. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Gentlemen,

    I suspect DavidW was hoping you would post up the actual details of the various establishments rather than giving him a list of document titles. :wink:
     
  7. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Hi. Aixman.
    Middle East War Establishment.

    Mark N is correct!

    I am not getting notifications, so apologies for taking so long to reply.
     
  8. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    Alright Mark, here you go:
    VI/1931/35/1
    Headquarters Armoured Division (Egypt)
    IMG_6588.JPG
    IMG_6589.JPG
     
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  9. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    VI/558/2
    Headquarters and Defence Troop of an Armoured Division, Middle East
    IMG_0388.JPG
    IMG_0389.JPG
    IMG_0390.JPG
    IMG_0391.JPG
     
    Trux likes this.
  10. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    I/1931/1A/3 (not really fitting .. but leave it here now, once posted ;) )
    Headquarters of an Armoured Division
    IMG_5697.JPG
    IMG_5698.JPG
    IMG_5699.JPG
    IMG_5700.JPG
    IMG_5701.JPG
    IMG_5702.JPG
     
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  11. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    II/1931/1/2
    Headquarters of a Division
    IMG_9895.JPG
    IMG_9896.JPG
    IMG_9897.JPG
    IMG_9898.JPG
     
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  12. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    II/1931/1/3
    Headquarters of a Division
    IMG_5348.JPG
    IMG_5349.JPG
    IMG_5350.JPG
    IMG_5351.JPG
     
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  13. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    II/1/4
    Headquarters of a Division
    IMG_2115.JPG
    IMG_2116.JPG
    IMG_2117.JPG
     
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  14. Trackfrower

    Trackfrower Member

    I found this useful too.

    Many thanks

    Lawrence
     
  15. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Thanks.

    Dare I ask for the Middle East War Establishment for an Infantry Division Headquarters for 1940 1942 please.
     
  16. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    No!
    :)

    Have you read already posts 11 to 13?
     
  17. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Yes.

    Why? Are they not armoured Divisions as well?
     
  18. Trux

    Trux 21 AG Patron

    David,

    Since armoured divisions were a new thing and airborne divisions not invented yet 'Headquarters of a Division' means Infantry Division.

    Mike.
     
  19. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    David

    Having reflected on your question in post 15, I came to a source of misunderstanding:
    You might have thought that there had to be a special Middle East table in volume VI.
    The tables came along in the "new" 1931 system in 4 volumes. As war arose there were needs to deal with special requirements. So more volumes were established:
    V - Home war establishments
    VI - Middle East
    VII - Anti-Aircraft
    and so on.
    The tables follow the rule that you take the standards (from volumes i to IV), unless there are special tables for special purposes.

    So in principle you should know all war establishments tables before being able to exclude the possibility of special tables. But that sounds easier than it is in reality. Regarding (infantry) divisions, there exists no special table in volume VI.

    Knowing all that and based on my introduction in post 4, I apologize for my cheeky "no" in post 16. I am happy to help anyone being interested in the matter, so keep on asking. Please consider that finding the correct information needs some time regarding the number of tables and the process explained above.

    I dare say now, that I have an idea of all the tables having appeared in volumes I to XVI during the period of 1931 to 1945 including all tables latter appeared and effective before 1946, at least as far as the TNA Kew offers information. Many doubts remain when you dig deeper. for the moment, I am after the three volumes "African Forces" (I - III AF).

    Best wishes
    Aixman
     
  20. Aixman

    Aixman WE addict

    Mike
    Thank you for the reputation points!

    How do you get on with the pre-war studies? I look forward to your most instructive accounts.

    Best wishes
    Aixman
     

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