Waldron West War Artist

Discussion in 'General' started by Uncle Target, Jul 10, 2021.

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  1. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    It costs £5 for a single name or date no refunds.
    Not sure at the moment which to ask for.
    Tried to phone them to ask for advice.
    All the staff at DRO are working from home so will have to email and receive a reply when they are available.
    Sign of the times!
     
  2. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Ask member `KORPS STEINER` he is a researcher at Durham and may be able to advise you better?

    Kyle
     
  3. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I have spoken to a relative. They are going to apply for his Service Record and come back in due course.
    They have a photo of his younger brother who is apparently similar to him and not unlike the painting in some ways
    A photo of him from The DLI would be a welcome addition but might have to wait.
    I will check my emails from time to time.
    Bye for now.
     
  4. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I have discussed Frank Smith with a friend of a relative. Forgetting the painting for now, I now have an ageing lady who is related to Capt Frank Stuart Smith. He died before she was born.
    The family had no photographs of him.
    She would like to know what he looks like so if there is anyone charitable enough to post a copy if they find one I will make sure that she gets it as she doesnt have a computer..
    Her friend is hoping to obtain his Service Records and is in touch with me, they live not far away and I hope to meet them at some stage.
    Some of us older folk prefer the personal touch, many distrust the internet. An attitude that I happen to respect.
    I won't be around on here for a while but will eventually reply to a PM if it is a friendly message.
    Bye for now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  5. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    We now have a link between the artist and the person in the painting. He was himself an artist and probable acquaintance of the painter before he joined up.
    His Service Record will be applied for.
    The relative however has no photos of him. We have looked at the DRO website which displays a collection of photos of the DLI most of them seem to be very parochial with groups of men from the Durham area. It seems that the photographic image of Captain Stuart Smith will remain a mystery and the painting his pictorial memorial.
    I have sent a PM as suggested in post #22.
    I will be otherwise occupied for a while but will watch my emails for friendly alerts.
     
  6. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Had contact from the relative.
    No longer need a photo of Captain F S Smith all sorted.
    Case closed. Sorry to trouble you all.
     
  7. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I decided to study the Battle of Salerno as someone mentioned "The Heat of Battle." I downloaded "Voices from the Front" the DLI in Italy 1943-45 from Kindle.
    I only speed read to October 1943 as I was taken by the fact that after extremely heavy casualties including a Friendly Fire incident involving their own mortars, the Battalion was withdrawn for a rest on the 19th September. There was no mention of further fighting at Salerno. So I wonder how did Captain Frank Stuart Smith come to be killed on the 22nd September 1943. I would have thought that had he died of wounds the CWGC would have recorded it as such (or have I missed something).
    Anyone got any further books or stories to read that might offer clues as it seems the DLI Museum has received a "direct hit" Unfortunately `KORPS STEINER` was unable to help with a photo.
    Is there anything in TNA or members collections which might help explain the date of his death.
    The CWGC seems to have had a revamp and less flexible with enquires, they are now using prepared forms.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
  8. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    He is only buried at Salerno . The battalion were still in action at CORPO DI CAVA in the Salerno area . 53030 Worrall and 255814 Sherlaw won Military Crosses on 22/23 September 1943 they were aiding a platoon of 6th Bn The York and Lancaster I believe .Worrall I think kept them (B & D Companies 16DLI) supplied after they were cut off on the 22nd Sept 1943 . So they were still in action?

    Kyle
     
  9. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Capt F S Smith transferred along with two other officers of the DLI to the 5th Sherwood Foresters on 16th Sept 1943 reverting to his substantive rank of Lieutenant to comply with War Establishment requirements.
    5th Sherwood Foresters were desperate for officers having lost a large number in the first week at Salerno.
    His rank of T/Captain was later reinstated by CWGC to comply with his parent Regimental records.
    Information believed to be correct extracted from the DLI and Sherwood Forester War Diaries.
    Thank you everyone involved for your efforts and support in this project.
    It remains to obtain his Service Record which might take some time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
  10. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I am assuming that Capt F S Smith transferred from the 17th to 16th DLI but is this the case.
    Could he not have gone through the ranks in the 9th DLI to become Captain.
    This was the time of the Salerno Mutiny in which I think some 9 DLI were caught up.
     
  11. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

  12. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    No mutineer officers . Highest rank was a Sergeant

    Kyle
     
  13. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Dont take it the wrong way but you missed the point Kyle,
    Did he rise through the ranks in the 9th Btn to become a Captain.
    It appears that the 16th DLI were up to War Establishment so three replacement officers were transferred to 5 SF.
    One of them apparently came through the ranks.
    Personally I think that the 17th DLI fit the bill being local to the artist as 17 DLI were based in Shropshire.
    Possibly he thought that he was there for the duration as a Captain.
    His father was a Sergeant Armourer with the 5th Warks in WW1 and never went to war.
    Perhaps he thought joining the 17th DLI was a good idea on Home Service but their disbandment was an unforeseen mishap.
    I originally thought that he must have been a Worcester to be painted by Waldron West until I saw that the 17th DLI were based in Shrewsbury.
    I do however have a suspicious mind and anything can be the case until proven.
    I was trained to hold no preconceived ideas.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  14. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    No I havent missed any point I dont think ? You mentioned the 9th DLI then the Salerno Mutiny and I`m simply answering that ? Is there a link to 9th DLI that I have missed along the way . The so called Salerno mutiny started on the 16 September 1943 and involved many units from 50th Div including the DLI . I think on second thoughts I am missing a point as I cannot relate 9 DLI or the Mutiny to the query?

    In relation to the 17 DLI thats not the way the 17th DLI were formed or operated . He (Smith) cannot choose 17th DLI ,he couldnt enlist into the 17th DLI .Officers pre war went to their regular peacetime battalions ,war time they were posted, The 17th DLI were formed in 1940 as one of the `Dunkirk` battalions of the DLI and officers were brought from more established units .. Each battalion it was envisaged would be a front line unit but the way it worked out only the 16th DLI went to war .The 18th DLI were a `beach brick` and were in Italy but only in a supply capacity. The others were either disbanded or their role and purpose changed .

    History of the 17th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry, by Lieutenant-Colonel H.B. Morkill, 18 June 1940 - 14 December 1943 includes photographs, and a list of personnel posted to the 16th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry on disbandment.

    Prior to disbandment the 17th DLI were at Seaford, Sussex, during July 1943 . Here the battalion companies were all photographed . All of the photographs (unlike those of the 16 DLI ) survive at the DRO in Durham . If your man was an officer with the 17 th DLI he will be on one of those photographs or featured in the transferred personnel in the history (Copy also at Durham) The officers photographed in July 1943 were ;-
    (Reference: D/DLI 2/17/1(34)
    Group photograph of the officers of the 17th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry, taken at Seaford, Sussex, July 1943 Back row: Lieutenants Cheesbrough, Critchley, Cornish, Buckle, Ebdon, Vane, Ford, Thomlinson, Walker, and O'Hagan
    Front row: Captains Joseph, McKenzie, and Bradley, Major Close-Brooks, Captain A.B. Palframan, Lieutenant-Colonel H.B. Morkill, Major Southey, Captains Best, Edwards, and Coulthard, Lieutenant Allen

    [​IMG]

    Kyle
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
    Cpl Hadaway likes this.
  15. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Thanks for your rapid reply.
    Wherever he came from he is listed as T/C Smith SF DLI on the 19th Sept 1943 5 Fors 139 Inf Bde War Diary.
    Three names entry 37 = TC Smith SF Entry 38= 2/Lt Crane K & 2/Lt Clarke LW

    I would expect to find him in a group of replacements somewhere.
    I haven't counted how many names are in the photo so assume he isn't there but will try to zoom in just in case.
    I find it amazing how people are missed in photograph sessions but it is certainly not unusual.

    My current enquiry is to find out when he joined the DLI and what happened between 1939 and 1942 when he appears in the London Gazette.
    In 1939 he was a Commercial Artist in Birmingham. In 1941 I believe he was sketched by Waldron West sitting on a bed cleaning a rifle. (They may have been professionally acquainted) The Roll of Honour seems to confirm his residence in Birmingham at that time and a note on the sketch gives this date.
    He was Commissioned into the DLI in November 1942.

    I thought this would be easy as the artist is from Worcester having painted subjects at Norton Barracks or possibly at the weekend training camp at Tyddesley Wood Range Pershore but it seems not to be.

    This link tells me that the 17th Btn was formed in Shrewsbury in 1940 and disbanded in Aug 1943 which also fits the bill. Why should he not be recruited from the Midlands. List of battalions of the Durham Light Infantry - Wikipedia

    It seems that we will have to wait for the Army Service Record to confirm dates in between.

    In the business world there is a reference to the man who started McDonalds when he was asked the secret of his success: Persistence

    Many thanks for all your help.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  16. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    I dont think we are far off we just need his Service Record which is work in progress.
    It was presented to the RA Battery by an ex RA Major..
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  17. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Save your eyesight those present are named above ,he isnt there , Given the turnaround in personnel they must be many such `officer groups` ?

    17th DLI were formed at the same time as 14th DLI the difference with 17 DLI they were formed as you say in Shrewsbury at The depot of The Kings Shropshire Light Infantry their original CO was from the Green Howards and their officers and instructors were formed from personnel from FIFTEEN different regiments not like the 14th DLI who drew their cadre from the DLI regimental depot at Brancepeth .
    14th DLI and 17th DLI came into being on the same day July 4th 1940 (not June). Within three months they were established in Tented Camps near Edinburgh . Each battalion cadre were given a draft of 800 men direct from civilian life. 14 DLI & 17 DLI were on coastal defence on the England/Scotland Border before moving South in the New Year. In February they moved to Folkestone . The 17th then moved independantly to Ottley ,Yorkshire. Although they officially remained here from 1942 the 17th were actually dispersed to several areas with some as far as Lands end! The calibre of recruits varied in those early days with the 14th DLI receiving one recruit in a wheelchair who had been lame since birth .(Source;- David Rissik, DLI at War, History of The Durham Light Infantry 1939-45)

    Kyle
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  18. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Busy people those KOSLI an uncle from Swansea was transferred from his local TA to them about 1938.They must have had a training centre in the area as its along way to travel to Shropshire from Swansea.
    Regards Capt Smith he was promoted very quickly, Commissioned in Nov 1942 and a Captain in Sept 1943. I know it happened but I would have expected him to have field promotions not in a training unit. He must have walked right into trouble with the Foresters, they were losing officers hand over fist. The DLI had a tough time as well but any Regiment tends to look after its own. Smith was on to a loser aged 28 with no battle experience and no doubt not as fit as the men who had been there a while, .there's the quick and the dead as they say.
    At least it explains why he wasnt in any photos, in a mixed reserve unit I doubt if anyone cared..
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  19. JackieJennie

    JackieJennie New Member

    Good Evening All
    My name is Jackie and I am the niece to Frank Stuart Smith and the closest living relative
    Anyone have any questions?
     
  20. Cpl Hadaway

    Cpl Hadaway Active Member

    Evenin'

    I came across this thread while looking for something else, but may have a few background details to add. So, at the risk of thread drift:

    I think one clue to Captain Smith's movements after his commission are two of his fellow newly minted DLI officers in the London Gazette of 12/1/43,

    E Yates and G Barnett

    https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35857/supplement/262/data.pdf

    Yates, Lt Ernest 253708, 16 DLI.
    Commissioned DLI, EC, LG 12/1/43.
    Reported killed in action, Italy, date not reported.
    Corrected: date of death should read 14/10/43.
    Died: 14 October 1943 aged 26. Minturno War Cemetery, Italy VII D 25. Son of Edwin and Mary Yates, of Glossop, Derbyshire. Born Derbyshire; enlisted Derbyshire. Previously served in 70 DLI.
    See Ted Grey IWM Interview.

    Barnett, W/Lt G K, 'Gerry', 253701, 16 DLI.
    Commissioned DLI, EC, LG 12/1/43
    Reported wounded, Italy, 15-18/9/43.
    Corrected: date of casualty should read 15/9/43.
    Reported wounded, Italy date not reported (1/44 cas list)
    Corrected: date of casualty should read 10/1/44.
    Interviewed by IWM:
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80011974

    Part of Barnett's IWM interview summary is pasted below. we can assume Yates and Smith were fellow cadets. The interview also covers his experiences in Italy through to being wounded. Smith's experiences would have been broadly similar from the date he joined 16 DLI.

    The other salient name in previous posts is

    Clark, 2/Lt Leslie William 301496, 16 DLI.
    Reported killed in action, Italy, 13/10/43, attached 5th Bn Sher For, personal number not recorded.
    Reported killed in action, Italy, 13/10/43, attached 5th Bn Sher For. 'Personal number should read 301496.'
    Died: 13 October 1943 aged 30. Minturno War Cemetery, Italy VIII D 16. Son of Albert and Lilly Alice Clark, of Doncaster, Yorkshire; husband of Doreen Mabel Clark, of Doncaster.
    Previously served as Cpl in the Battalion, Army Number 4464724.
    Granted Immediate Emergency Commission 7/8/43. x

    16 DLI were made up to strength with assorted reinforcement drafts of officers and men from 3/43 onwards, so Smith could have either came out with Captains Vizard, Reynolds et al in early March 43, or with Lts Sherlaw, Coutts et al, later in the summer, or in a similar draft to North Africa, prior to Salerno. Sherlaw and Vizard were both interviewed by the IWM.

    Four 16 DLI Other Ranks received battlefield commissions in August 1943 and three of them were dead within two months. (The survivor, Arthur Pearson, later MC, was also the only one of 16 DLI's four Rifle Company CSMs to survive the Sedjenane Battle of 3/43.)

    Lt Clark, as noted above.

    Duffy, 2/Lt Herbert 301497 Died: 11 September 1943 aged 26. Salerno War Cemetery, Italy III F 13.

    and

    Harrison, 2/Lt Douglas Richard Montgomery 301336 Died: 12 September 1943 aged 32. Salerno War Cemetery, Italy IV C 37.

    Ted Grey, in his IWM interview, mentions meeting Lt Freddie Stoddart again, who he had served with in the 70th, when he came out as a reinforcement. When Grey went into the line just after Salerno, Stoddart was already there, having arrived with an earlier draft. So it is possible, post-17 DLI, that Smith went out with him.

    Strothard, Lt F W, 253977, 16 DLI
    Reported killed in action, Italy, date not reported, bn not specified.
    Corrected: date of death should read 3/12/43.
    Died: 3 December 1943 aged 25. Minturno War Cemetery, Italy I J 8. Son of Joseph William Strothard (formerly Flt Sgt RAF), and Annie Strothard, of Tadcaster, Yorkshire.

    Obviously the service record will fix his exact movements, but these other names I think provide some useful context.

    Gerry Barnett IWM summary below.

    Cpl H

    REEL 1

    ........Recollections of period at Officers' Cadet Training unit at Barmouth, GB, 6/1942-12/1942: prior mistaken posting; reception; hard physical nature of training; night exercises; drill; tactical exercises without troops; hotel billets; relationship with cadets.

    REEL 2 Continues: relationship with civilians; regimental sergeant major; question of standards of behaviour as officer; driving and motor-bike training; weapons training; question of being returned to unit; kitting out as officer; pay; commission into Durham Light Infantry. Recollections of 14th Bn Durham Light Infantry at Paignton and Hornsea, GB, 1/1943-2/1943: officers' mess and lack of formality between officers; cadre status of unit; absence of experience commanding platoon; minimal coastal defences. Reaction to posting to join 1/6th Bn, East Surrey Regt at Glasgow, GB, 2/1943. Conditions during voyage aboard Orion to Algiers, Algeria, 2/1943. Recollections of period in transit camps in Algeria, 2/1943-3/1943: march; staying behind as reserve officer; successful application to join Durham Light Infantry. Recollections of period with 16th Bn Durham Light Infantry in North Africa, 3/1943-7/1943: situation; state of unit; opinion of Colonel Johnny Preston; attending mine warfare course, 4/1943, including S mines. REEL 3 Continues: attending mine warfare course, 4/1943, including difficulty in locating S mines, German rifle grenades, anti-tank mines, method of setting booby traps, question of British use of mines and story illustrating soldiers' willingness to discard them; Italian non-metal mines and training in methods of using of gun cotton, ammonal and different types of fuse; army training methods; rejoining unit at Blida; temporary attachment as reserve officer with 1st Bn King's Shropshire Light Infantry in Tunisia including journey, informal officers' mess, German air raids, remaining behind on move to Pantelleria and lorry journey back to rejoin unit at Blida; food rations and desert cooking method; posting to command 13 Platoon, C Coy; company officers; relationship with Other Ranks; story of NCO trying to take POWs rather than killing Germans; relationship with platoon sergeant. REEL 4 Continues: importance of making and drinking tea during exercises in Atlas Mountains; capture of escaped German POW; story illustrating thirst; relationship with Algerian civilians; personal morale and question of imminent Italian campaign; move to Bizerta, 8/1943; disembarkation practice from Landing Ship Infantry; party and drinking game; noise of crickets. Voyage on LSI via Sicily to Salerno, Italy, 9/1943: uniform, equipment and weapons; anti-mosquito precautions; conditions; news of surrender of Italians, 8/9/1943; landing on beech; situation and air supremacy; period in olive grove. Recollections of operations on Hospital Hill, Salerno area, Italy, 9/1943: neutral position of Catholic seminary; situation; German shell and mortar fire; question of casualties. REEL 5 Continues: water supply; situation; distribution of sections on forward and reverse slopes; slit trenches; crawling between platoon positions; German shellfire and developing ability to judge landing point; compo food rations and problems in distribution amongst men; question of shaving; latrines; effects of fatigue; checking platoon positions; question of casualties; question of radio communications; reporting to company commander; role of NCOs; leadership role of officers and personal morale; question of 'Blighty' wounds and self-inflicted wounds. REEL 6 Continues: situation; advance to take over positions on top of hill including co-operation with naval forward observation officer, slight shoulder wound from German mortar fire and treating severely wounded NCO. Recollections of German counter-attack at Salerno, Italy, 15/9/1943-16/9/1943: attending 'O' group at Headquarters, C Coy; surprise nature of German attack infiltrating through to headquarters; counter-attack by officers and NCOs; story of Lieutenant Ronnie Sherlaw mistaking German for British troops on reaching 'Pimple' sector; discovering Vickers machine gun team; fatigue; use of Thompson machine gun; jaw wound from German grenade; escorting back German POWs and attitude to German troops. Medical treatment at regimental aid post and evacuation by hospital ship to North Africa, 9/1943: reactions; fatigue and hunger. REEL 7 Period in hospital, convalescent camp and transit camp in North Africa, 9/1943-1/1943: lack of equipment and uniform; reception; hunger, difficulty eating and ruse to avoid light diet; reactions to prospect of return to active service and desire to return to unit; meeting Lieutenant Giff Footer and ruse to secure early return together to unit; movements of kit; rejoining unit. Recollections of operations in Garigliano area, 12/1943-1/1944: state of unit; relationship with other ranks; location of company headquarters; relationship with Italian civilians during rest period in La Vaglie; effects of German shellfire in position formed from stone sangars; advance into valley following German withdrawal; story of advance of C and D company patrol across river to farm buildings in Cedra sector; question of booby traps and mines. REEL 8 Continues: attacking group of German soldiers and intervention of sergeant to try and ensure Germans were taken prisoner rather than killed; story of being wounded in neck and shoulder by German machine gun; initial reaction; rescue by runner and NCO; initial medical treatment from stretcher bearers and evacuation to Regimental Aid Post. Recollections of medical treatment in Italy, 1/1944-6/1944:
     

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