hi considering the waffen ss were the military branch of the ss do the forum members think that they are war criminals as the nuremburg trials decided or just soldiers who did their duty. obviously some, not all, committed war crimes but hasn't a soldier from every other fighting unit from around the world at some point done the same. would be interested in your views herman
The Waffen SS were more than just soldiers they were murderers. The SS were responsible for atrocites right across Europe and the excuse that they were just carrying out orders doesn't hold water, therefore the Nuremburg trial rightly gave them they're sentences.
Originally posted by Thomas McCall@May 12 2004, 12:57 PM The Waffen SS were more than just soldiers they were murderers. The SS were responsible for atrocites right across Europe and the excuse that they were just carrying out orders doesn't hold water, therefore the Nuremburg trial rightly gave them they're sentences. ...however, they were also involved in some of the finest and bravest military manouvres of the 20th century. Through mental and physical fitness, good equipment, tactical awareness throughout the chain of command, discipline and harsh training regimes, many SS units (especially earlier on in the war) rightfully deserve an "elite" status (though there were some crap ones too!) and ,in my eyes, purely for the military achievements rank alongside many of the famous Allied regiments. B.
Simply saying: they were fanatics. Blinded by belief in Fuhrer. Typical example of German way of thinking: order, order and once more order. Small test. I always wandered how and what people, from western Europe, know about Polish history. Question: What is the story of SS-Standarte Germania?
I agree the Waffen SS were very good fighting soldiers and their bravery cannot be underestimated when in combat especially on the Eastern Front, but they will also be remembered for their war crimes.
Through mental and physical fitness, good equipment, tactical awareness throughout the chain of command, discipline and harsh training regimes, many SS units (especially earlier on in the war) rightfully deserve an "elite" status (though there were some crap ones too!) and ,in my eyes, purely for the military achievements rank alongside many of the famous Allied regiments. Does all this include the fact that many officers had no real combat experience and their agressive training led them to take extremely high and unnecessary amount of casualties? In my opinion, even if there were some very, very good combat units and there were some exceptions too like 5th SS Panzer division 'Wiking' which is almost clean of every mention of war crimes, all these units were members of the greatest criminal organisation in History: the SS. And most of this units, crowded with fervent nazis firmly beleived in nazi ideology and they carried out the war in the eastern front accordingly and then exported this kind of merciless warfare to the western front. 1st and 2nd SS Panzer divisions were definately the best divisions in the Wehrmacht —this is Armed Forces— but they were also involved in brutal treatment of war prisoners, partisans and civilians in both fronts. It is useless also to say what the 3rd SS —made of concentration camps' personnel—, 4th SS, the 12th SS and other units —specially the anti-partisan units— did. Also what about individuals like Dirlewanger, Monkhe, von dem Bach-Zelewski, Eicke? If the German Army and even the Luftwaffe were up-to-the-neck in filth about war crimes, what can someone expect from Himmler's SS? We have to understand something. WWII Germany was NAZI Germany, nazified Germans, nazi officials, nazi ideals, nazi culture —if you can call that culture— and nazi brutality. No pretty Germany with nice wood houses, sausages and beer! :angry:
The SS were an elite unit within the Nazi regime. Like any elite unit, it would attract young German males who would be attracted to the status that it provided. I believe that they were a very effective fighting force who accomplished alot due to their physical fitness standards and training. But as Frederic H stated in his last paragraph, they were formed in Nazi Germany, hence perverted by the Nazi's and their blind obedience was taken advantage of to commit many atrocities. There were many other units that did the same thing in the name of Nazi Germany. There is a book called the Devils Brigade that does a good job explaining the average SS soldiers opinion of those matters during the war. Just one more point, Germany was not the only country that commited war crimes during the war. Paul K
If anyone had told me a couple of years ago that I would feel some sympathy for a group of men who joined the Waffen-SS, I would never have believed them. I am English, my granfather was Polish. But history is full of ironic twists that lead down many interesting and unexpected paths. Generally speaking the Nazis can rot in Hell for eternity. But who can really condmen the men of the Finnisches Freiwilligen Bataillon der Waffen-SS . Steve
Many of the Waffen SS divisions were made up of foreign Nazis who could join the SS but not the Heer. It is ironic that in the fighing in Berlin in the last days of the war, the German troops included French and Scandinavian SS members. From 1942 onwards, many of the German police regiments in the East were incorporated into the SS and, even if they joined Waffen SS formations, many had previously been implicated in the Holocaust to various extents. The dividing line between the SS and the police was not sharply drawn, starting with Himmler in his role as RFSS and head of German Police. You could even say that Himmler himself served in a Waffen SS capacity during the short period at the end of the war when he was a disaster in the role of Army Group commander. Later in the war, I believe that there was direct conscription in Germany into the SS though, so these individuals were not tainted by being volunteers. I just don't think the Waffen SS as a whole can be that clearly distinguished from the rest of the SS, even if some units and individuals can be.
The dedication of some SS regiments by the end of the war shows their dedication to Hitler such as the SS Charlamagne which was made up of Frenchmen. The SS Charlamagne defended the Reichstag in Berlin against the Soviets and repulsed many attacks against it and killed a large number of Soviet soldiers. They knew Germany was going to lose the war and probably that most of them would die, the reason they fought to the end in the Reichstag was their dedication to Hitler and their belief that they should kill as many communists as possible
Originally posted by Thomas McCall@May 17 2004, 11:11 AM They knew Germany was going to lose the war and probably that most of them would die, the reason they fought to the end in the Reichstag was their dedication to Hitler and their belief that they should kill as many communists as possible ...and also the fact that they believed that they had everything to lose if they didn't. If they were captured ,they believed (in many cases correctly so) that the Soviets would kill them out of hand, and, if they escaped, they believed they had nowhere to go, being regarded as "traitors" by their home countries. Might as well fight to the end then! (Not too sure about their total dedication to Hitler by this point of the war, though - even the Liebstandarte was turning against him now) It's no wonder so many ex-SS personnel continued fighting throughout the 1950's in Algeria and Indo-China within the ranks of La Legion Etranger. B.
Happy Hussar, I know that the Germania Regiemnt was active in Poland 1939, were they or some of there men responsible for an atrocity against local polish troops or civilians during that period. they also went on to form the nucleus of the 5th Wiking division commanded by Felix Steiner. I seem to remeber something about barns and burning people a;live but my memeory is a bit fuzzy. And himmler over ruled the decision to court marshal the officer in charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! let me know if I am on the correct lines. Ps I am reading at the moment a book entitled 'Bitter Glory Poland and its Fate' by Richard M Watt. It covers the 1918-39 era of polish history. Only just started it but seems informative, have you read it?
About SS Germania. Poland 1939. During night ride, polish troops, attacked Germans. By order of colonel Bronislaw Prugar-Ketling they unloaded their arms. Using only bayonets, bare hands their attacked enemy. As colonel reports "The sounds of machine guns were cut, suddenly, in half of fire. The impression was incredible. Battle endured during darkness and sinister silence. So the dread, which gripped Germans, must have exceeded all their past experience. With such surprise and with such attack they undoubtedly never meet. The bodies, which we later have seen, had terrific visage." So as you see polish army wasn't using '19th century tactics or at least those from WW I' and its soldiers didn't killed 'about 700 German soldiers' As I once heard on Discovery Channel. I must say that those #@&@*....things made me really angry. About book. I'll try to look around for it. Thnx. Look at http://www.questionofhonor.com/ if you havent reed this book yet ;]
If you check the Nuremberg testimony of Otto Ohlendorf, who was the commander of Einsatzgruppe D in 1941/42, you will see that he stated that each of the four Einsatzgruppen had a company of Waffen SS assigned to it. You can find this on the site of the Avalon Project at Yale University.
ust one more point, Germany was not the only country that commited war crimes during the war. But no other nation commited war crimes slightly comparable in scale and kind to those of Germany. they were formed in Nazi Germany, hence perverted by the Nazi's and their blind obedience was taken advantage of to commit many atrocities. Not only blind obedience, but also they were trained to hate and killed all the inferior people, GLADLY. From 1942 onwards, many of the German police regiments in the East were incorporated into the SS and, even if they joined Waffen SS formations, many had previously been implicated in the Holocaust to various extents. The dividing line between the SS and the police was not sharply drawn, starting with Himmler in his role as RFSS and head of German Police. You could even say that Himmler himself served in a Waffen SS capacity during the short period at the end of the war when he was a disaster in the role of Army Group commander. This is true. But I just one to make clear that you CANNOT draw a line between almost ANY German organisation of the time and the nazi régime. There are exceptions however, that even if III Reich's forces, were just lightly nazified and were not involved in any war crimes: e.g. Rommel's Afrika Korps and the Kriegsmarine. If you check the Nuremberg testimony of Otto Ohlendorf, who was the commander of Einsatzgruppe D in 1941/42, you will see that he stated that each of the four Einsatzgruppen had a company of Waffen SS assigned to it. As well as Army and MP.
