Villers-Bocage

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Drew5233, Sep 5, 2009.

  1. labeline

    labeline Junior Member

    That is an excellent description and I have been in contact with Dan Taylor who has clarified things in my mind so far as Rex's tank is concerned and I look forward to the revision of his book with all of the extra and new detail.
     
  2. Goodygixxer

    Goodygixxer Senior Member

    Pictures taken on Rue Pasteur shortly after it reversed around the bend from Rue Clemenceau. The shots are taken with Rue Clemenceau behing the photographer.

    This Sherman was 'Brewed up' from a single shot that entered the right hand side of the turret.

    The Tanks Markings are as follows:

    Drivers hatch: A square denoting 'K' Battery commanders tank.

    Co-Drivers hatch: The Arm-of-Service badge with '76' for 5 RHA and the 7th Armoured Brigade's 'Desert Rat' above.

    Bow Plate: Landing Craft No. 3517 LCT. The white marking below are from a Weights and Measure sticker.

    Front Right Side: 33 in a circle is the bridge classification.

    16030 on the 'Stowage Box' is thought to have some connection with embarkation.

    No.3
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    Is that the barrell on the deck in front of the Sherman? It look splintered like it's made of wood! Did they use dummy barrels for any reason? Also it still has the muzzle bag attached so doesn't look like it's ready for action!
     
  3. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Is that the barrell on the deck in front of the Sherman? It look splintered like it's made of wood! Did they use dummy barrels for any reason? Also it still has the muzzle bag attached so doesn't look like it's ready for action!

    It's Sherman OP tank and yes, it have dummy wooden gun to make the tank look like an ordinary tank.
     
  4. op-ack

    op-ack Senior Member

    OP Tanks were fitted with wooden guns in order that more space could be made available in the turret for radios, map board, etc. This was to enable the FOO to carry out his work undercover.

    Phil
     
  5. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    I'm presuming the dummy gun was to make it look like an ordinary tank so it wouldnt attract undue attention?
     
  6. Goodygixxer

    Goodygixxer Senior Member

    Thats the first wooden barrel i've seen since they were invented hundreds of years ago!
     
  7. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Note the confusion as to the spelling of Sim(m)on(d)s. I would use the 1944 version!

    Better still, the Field Return of Officers in the war diary, or his MM citation:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61829&stc=1&d=1316455536

    Hadn't realised he was originally 3 CLY.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    There is an ugly penetration hole to the right of the mantlet of that Sherman OP.
     
  9. Thunderbox

    Thunderbox Member

    Thats the first wooden barrel i've seen since they were invented hundreds of years ago!

    Modern Warrior OP vehicles still have a wooden (and alloy) dummy barrel....
     
  10. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Captain Paddy Victory was not behind Major Wells tank. A few half tracks were behind the Sherman OP. They had received RHQ orders to stop and await further orders. At the time of Wittmans attack the column had stopped for an 'african brew'.
    There was (but no more) a street that ran parallel to Rue Pasteur. It is now believed that Captain Victory had taken this route into Rue Pasteur. There was no reversal in tanks by either Captain Victory or the OP Sherman. Think about it, why would there be two OP tanks 'parked' one behind the other ? This would not happen.
    My father was in the tank alone sorting cigarettes when he spotted the Tiger. He tried to engage the Tiger by ramming it but obviously took two hits. One deflected off the road and hit the front the other on the offside turret. He escaped through the floor hatch and was then promptly shrapnel wounded below the knee. You can see the hastily thrown out headphones by the drivers hatch.


    I believe Victory was behind the Sherman as it's the only way his Cromwell could logically have got into the position it was left in, but I also don't believe the reversing down the street part of the story. I would also suggest that the Cromwell was torched by us (Cotton springs to mind) rather than the Germans
     
     
    There is a version by Major Robert Belgrave 5th Royal Horse Artillery who was in an OP tank just behind the RHQ Troop. This of course means there were 3 OP tanks. (2 Cromwell and 1 Sherman) and they had turned the corner and were near what we (now) know as the position of Dyas's Cromwell rather than the final position of the OP Sherman..
     
    Major Belgrave, 5th RHA, Cromwell IV OP
    Major Robert Wells, ‘K’ Battery, 5th RHA, Sherman OP
    Captain Paddy Victory, 3rd RHA, Cromwell IV OP.
     
    This is an extract from his account:
     
    I......... turned to signal Robert [Wells] to go back, He looked puzzled then backed fast. .......A Cromwell reverses at a maximum speed of 2 miles per hour. Robert’s Sherman went faster. With a gasp I saw him ram the logs by the side of the road, ricochet off and hit a White halftrack belonging to a medium Battery commander.
     
    Now the mention of the logs is a clincher that this is a true account. These 'logs' are to be seen under the Pz IV on the bend (it got stuck on them) and (in the words of Morris Micklewhite) 'not a lot of people knew that'!
     
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    Belgrave says he turned around and drove back down the High Street until he met B Squadron.
     
  11. idler

    idler GeneralList

    There is a version by Major Robert Belgrave 5th Royal Horse Artillery

    That's intriguing - can I ask where that's from, please?
     
  12. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    can I ask where that's from, please?
    From an extremely detailed manuscript by Julian Shales. he has collected first hand accounts and discovered a lot of new information. I presume it will surface in print one day.

    The reason I mentioned it and gave a (partial) quote from Belgrave is because of the 'log' detail. This is an extremely significant observation and confirms Belgrave was 'round the bend' and actualy there. No ifs and buts on this one!
    Belgrave (Capt T.R.D. Belgrave) is mentioned in 5th RHA Documents in Feb/March 1944 so I presume he was promoted?

    War Diary of CC Battery Royal Horse Artillery 1944
     
  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    His majority was post-war according to the London Gazette (he took a bit of finding last night):

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62017&stc=1&d=1316540384

    Can't rule out him being a W/S Capt and Temp Maj, but the only way he'd have fitted into 5 RHA as a major would have been as 2/ic of the regiment as we know the three BCs weren't him: Kynaston, Wells and Cooke.

    Thanks - that's a useful piece of the jigsaw.

    Andrew
     

    Attached Files:

  14. RHA

    RHA Junior Member

    His majority was post-war according to the London Gazette (he took a bit of finding last night):

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62017&stc=1&d=1316540384

    Can't rule out him being a W/S Capt and Temp Maj, but the only way he'd have fitted into 5 RHA as a major would have been as 2/ic of the regiment as we know the three BCs weren't him: Kynaston, Wells and Cooke.

    Thanks - that's a useful piece of the jigsaw.

    Andrew

    As of March '44 Belgrave is listed as Capt. TRD Belgrave RHA "C" Tp Cmdr.

    On another note 'Robert' Wells?? An oversight surely.
     
  15. singeager

    singeager Senior Member

  16. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    It is the ATB book by Daniel Taylor.
     
  17. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    To Labeline / Mike Kenny:

    I know this thread has been dormant for a while....

    What is the source of the Jack Douglas/ Pumphrey account posted?

    Cheers
     
  18. djbamforduk

    djbamforduk Member

    A year or two ago, I stumbled across a filmed interview with Pat Dyas on YouTube, but I cannot find it now...!
    I think it might have been on an old British Army training film, rather than a commercial TV documentary' although I'm not certain of that.
    Either way, there is a mass of stuff on the internet about Michael Wittman, so it feels a bit like searching for a needle in a haystack.
    Anyway, I ended up here, back at WW2Talk.
    Please can anyone offer me any pointers...?
     
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Had to click through a security warning to get there, but video here:
    https://ksymuseum.org.uk/stories/ViewStory/2?page=4
    "The bloody man was coming back!" Sound familiar?

    I never made the connection with Robert Dyas. So cheers for that!
     
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  20. idler

    idler GeneralList

    If memory serves, 8 Hussars had an equivalent. Their Capt/Maj Dunne was a scion of the Irish department store empire.
     
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