Villers-Bocage

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Drew5233, Sep 5, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I think I've posted these pictures before from the Bundesarchive but without any meaningful description. Hopefully this will shed some light on these well known pictures with the ref source coming from After the Battle. If I can figure out how to paint on a Google Map I'll mark their locations too incase anyone wants to beat me to some 'Then and Now' shots. :)
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    T187608 Cromwell Tank.

    Picture taken on Rue Clemenceau, Villers-Bocage on the south side of the road near (Around 25 yards away) Rue Pasteur.

    RSM Gerald Holloway was reversing at the time when his tank was hit, seeking cover on the bend as it reached the start of Rue Pasteur.

    You can clearly see a weights and measure chart on the front right side of the turret that was used to help with loading for shipping them across the channel.

    No.1
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    T189592 Cromwell Tank.

    Picture taken just off Rue Clemenceau, Villers-Bocage on the south side of the road a short distance east of RSM Holloway's tank.

    Cloudsley-Thompson reversed off the road and through a hedge when he came under attack (The remnants can be seen in the forground of this shot) and stopped at the barn wall. Captain Pat Dyas took cover behind this wall as Wittmann came into the town.

    No.2
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Pictures taken on Rue Pasteur shortly after it reversed around the bend from Rue Clemenceau. The shots are taken with Rue Clemenceau behing the photographer.

    This Sherman was 'Brewed up' from a single shot that entered the right hand side of the turret.

    The Tanks Markings are as follows:

    Drivers hatch: A square denoting 'K' Battery commanders tank.

    Co-Drivers hatch: The Arm-of-Service badge with '76' for 5 RHA and the 7th Armoured Brigade's 'Desert Rat' above.

    Bow Plate: Landing Craft No. 3517 LCT. The white marking below are from a Weights and Measure sticker.

    Front Right Side: 33 in a circle is the bridge classification.

    16030 on the 'Stowage Box' is thought to have some connection with embarkation.

    No.3
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    T187749

    This picture of a Cromwell was taken on a side road off Rue Pasteur behind the Hotel du Bras d'Or.

    Captain Victory was behind Major Wells's Sherman and they both reversed back around the bend from Rue Clemenceau into Rue Pasteur when the unit was engaged by Wittmann.

    Captain Victory reversed his Cromwell into a side road that he had past a short time earlier as Major Wells's Sherman was hit. Captain Victory's Cromwell then attempted a nuetral turn to make good an escape in forward gears but became stuck as a paving slab jammed between the track and the drive socket.

    Captain Victory then saw the muzzle brake of Wittmann's Tiger appear so he told his crew to bale out and in the process the driver reversed the Cromwell straight into a glass shop door.

    Taking cover Captain Victory saw the Tiger almost drive past the side road thinking the Germans had not seen them. The Tiger stopped reversed back slightly and engaged the tank hitting it just below the turret. The Tiger then moved on further down the road.

    Captain Victory got back into the tank in an attempt to engage the Tiger but the training gear was smashed so he destroyed what he could before heading back to his unit.

    It is thought the Germans set fire to the tank sometime later to prevent it being used by the British if they re captured the town.


    No.4
    [​IMG]
     
  6. idler

    idler GeneralList

    16030 on the 'Stowage Box' is thought to have some connection with embarkation.

    I believe this was a unit code/serial for the embarkation. Dunlop's Cromwell AOP on p54 of ATB's VBTTL has the same code (but different LCT). Similar but different numbers can be made out on 4CLY vehicles (e.g. [1]0146 p32 & p56). It was probably far safer and quicker for the RN & MN to identify Army units by numbers rather than their names.
     
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    T187577

    Located on the south side of Rue Clemenceau this tank was behind Lieutenant John Cloudsley-Thompson's Cromwell and reversed back a short distance and then reversed right off the road into a garden next to Lt. Cloudsley-Thompson. (You can see the dividing wall in post 3).

    Captain Dyas's Cromwell is seen here after it pulled back out onto the right hand side of the road and travelled a short distance past RSM Holloways's Cromwell down hill to engage Wittmann's tank from the rear. However Wittmann had since turned round and fired a shot through the left side of the Cromwells turret destroying it.

    No.5
    [​IMG]

    Captain Dyas then ran the short distance to RSM Holloway's tank and found the radio set still working despite the tank being on fire. He radioed a Sit Rep through to the CO, Colonel, The Viscount, Arthur Cranley as Wittmann drove passed back up the hill.
     
  8. op-ack

    op-ack Senior Member

    I've been on a battlefield tour with Vic Jones, one of the crew of the Armoured OP. I'll try and find his description of what happened and post it here.

    Phil
     
  9. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    It is impossible for Wittmann to have met Dyas 'head-on' on the bend because his Tiger was knocked out in the high street. He never made back out. Wittmann himself (in an interview straight after the action) stated how he was knocked out "got to approximately the centre of Town where I was hit by an anti-tank gun"
    This is his tank

    [​IMG]
     
    James S likes this.
  10. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Well done on the descriptions to go with the photos!!
     
  11. Miguel B.

    Miguel B. Member

    Very, very nice. If not wittman, then another one of "his" Tigers. Little difference anyway. Dias report is probably a bit off understandibly...



    Cheers...
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The source of info is from After the Battle so it works for me :)
     
  13. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Andy, nothing's infallible chap.
    Much ATB coverage of Villers Bocage is dated and has been superceded by later research (or even at the time of release). EG. 'VB - Through the Lens' is still a nice book, but it does have errors and inconsistencies to it, as do other older ATB books.
    One can't expect publishers to constantly update their books, the world doesn't really work like that, even though ATB are better than many at revisions, but multiple sources are nearly always better than relying too heavily on one 'bible'.

    ~A
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Probably the wrong choice of words on my part.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  15. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Dyas said in 1980 (interview with Gary Simpson) that he stalked Wittmann 'for about 5 mins' in the streets of Villers.
    In reality Dyas went out straight after the Tiger passed him and was hit by a shot fired over the Tigers rear as it went INTO Villers.
    If you think he met Wittmann coming back out then the Tiger would have to have travel 500m into the town after passing Dyas. Knock out 2 tanks, exchange shots with a Fifefly, reverse and cover the 500m back to where Dyas was situated-in the time it took Dyas to quickly reverse out from wher he hid as Wittmann passed as he went into the town. That time line simply does not fit. .
    It also ignores the first hand account of Wittmann who clearly states he was knocked out in the centre of the town...........
    It also ignores the fact Wittmann's Tiger (we know exactly which one was his) is shown knocked out in the centre of Villers...
    John Cloudsley Thompson (who was right with Dyas that day) wrote in 1956:
    "he had hoped to shoot the Tiger from behind, but had met it coming back after knocking out the rest of RHQ. It fired once, killing his co-driver".

    In 2006 John wrote a book collecting together his earlier writings and this time he says:

    "he had hoped to shoot the Tiger from behind, It fired once, killing his co-driver"

    I know he believes it was a rearward shot from the Tiger that got Dyas.
    Nothing detracts from the bravery of Dyas, it is just that the sequence of events got confused and myth took hold..
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers,

    So how did No.5 (Dyas's Cromwell) meet its fate :unsure:

    Regards
    Andy
     
  17. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Cheers,

    So how did No.5 (Dyas's Cromwell) meet its fate :unsure:

    Regards
    Andy

    Wittman passed Dyas and headed into the town.
    Dyas pulled out to follow him but the Tiger had rotated its turret to the rear and fired at Dyas. It all happened very quickly.
    Dyas had a problem with a crew member. They glossed over the incident by saying he was out 'having a pee'.
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The book I've sourced the info from (I will admit I'm only using the bold type to descibe the pictures I've posted and a quick skim read of the main text) mentioned the crew problem and tried to rectify it when he reversed into the garden intially.

    I take it then the A company, 1st Rifle Brigade, 6 pounder at the Tilly junction where Ingrams Stuart was knocked out didn't knock out Wittmann then?

    lol, I'm beginning to think I've got a book with some good pictures and nowt else :lol:
     
  19. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    I think you are using Daniel's book and there is nothing wrong with it.
    Daniel believes firmly in the Dyas version of events and thus in the book he explains the photos in realtion to this view. His view has no more evidence than mine. It will never be decided for certain.
    Now none of this anorak detail in any way changes the outcome or make a blind bit of difference to anything. The only people who really care are the SS fan-boys and Wittmann groupies. A whole industry has grown up that revolves around the turret number of the Tiger used by Wittmann
     
  20. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Andy,
    It's still better than most if only because it acknowledges the alternatives.
    Regarding updates, ATB 132 (IIRC) has a 3-4 page update by Taylor. And guess what: it adds yet more possibilities.
     

Share This Page