Veteran's Headstone in a Civic Cemetery Toronto

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by 17thDYRCH, May 21, 2021.

  1. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron


    Pardon the error for not including the photo of the headstone in the original thread. So, my question is this. Does the CWGC have responsibility to replace headstones in civic cemeteries? This photo was taken at Mount Pleasant Cemetery in Toronto. Thanks in advance.
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    1936 grave.
    Nothing to do with the CWGC.
  3. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Thanks Owen
    But does not the CWGC have responsibilities to replace all Commonwealth War Grave Headstones every 20 years regardless of the conflict?
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Look at their website for dates they are responsible for.
  5. Marco

    Marco Senior Member

    Without looking in the GWGC database, I doubt if this is an official CWGC marker. The maple leaf doesn't look right.
  6. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    That solves it. Thanks Owen.
  7. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Marco, a good point and a good find.
  8. Marco

    Marco Senior Member

    Never heard that one. They are replaced when too badly worn.
  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Suggest family just had a headstone made in CWGC style .I have seen a few in UK cemeteries
    I just checked with CWGC in case they had him listed as a non com but they dont.

    Percy H Bailey
    BIRTH 1874
    DEATH 13 Jan 1936 (aged 61–62)
    London, Middlesex County, Ontario, Canada
    Mount Pleasant Cemetery
    Toronto, Toronto Municipality, Ontario, Canada


    Percy H Bailey (1874-1936) - Find A Grave...
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  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    He was a Shropshire lad

    England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
    Name: Percy Herbert Bailey
    Registration Year: 1879
    Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
    Registration District: Madeley
    Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
    Inferred County: Shropshire
    Volume: 6a
    Page: 669

    Birth 18 May 1878 Broseley, Shropshire, England
    Residence 1 Jun 1921 Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Marriage 21 Jun 1922 York, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Death 13 Jan 1936 Middlesex, Ontario, Canada
    Father Richard William Bailey (1842-1927)
    Mother Alice Green (1848-1924)
    Spouse Louisa Beatrice Sare (1879-1937)

    WW1 Veteran

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  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    Canadian Field Artillery. Canadian Expeditionary Force. So likely that he was in Canada prior to 1921.

    Presumably the family considered his death to be a consequence of the conflict which ended 17 years earlier. I have the impression that the Great War with its types of injuries and primitive health care, more than any other conflict, gave rise to a long trail of war-related deaths. Many of them had suffered the whole time since.
  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    All CWGC headstones and private headstones of casualties are visited in a cycle which could be 3 years and more.
    If the headstone is CWGC they will either clean or order a replacement.If a private headstone they will ensure the name is legible.

    Sadly this chap either served until he was into his sixties or the family decided to have a lookalike made due to his war service.
    Or he could have died through injuries/illness the family belived he had from WW1

    a thread here about it What about the poor sods who died between the wars?

    For info re CWGC and Private headstones that fall into the commemoration criteria
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  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    He has several family trees on Ancestry but as I dont has non UK access it wont allow me to see the copy of his death certificate or WW1 service record file to see what they say, as they may explain why the situation is what it is

    Perhaps a Canadian member with access could look his tree up and see what the records state

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  14. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Death certificate:
    Bailey death.jpg
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  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    A heart condition 62 years old, not immediately obviously connected to war service.
  16. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    These markers are quite common in Canadian cemeteries.

    War Graves - Library and Archives Canada

    Library and Archives Canada holds records related to the burial of service personnel from both the First and Second World War grouped into one series: Accession RG 150, 1992-93/314.

    • Volumes 1 to 38 hold applications for the burial of ex-CEF personnel to be buried in Canada or the United States with a military marker supplied by the Government of Canada.
    • Volumes 39 to 144 are known as the Black Binders and serve as a register of death and location of the body or memorial, serving primarily as a death certificate and register of burial for those serving in Belgium, France or the United Kingdom. These volumes have been digitized.
    • Volumes 145 to 238 are known as the Brown Binders which focuses on the circumstances of death (if available) with particulars of the initial grave site, if known. These volumes have also been digitized.
    • Volumes 239 to 274 are ledgers covering the death and burial of military service personnel in Canada and the United States during the First World War and afterwards.
    • Volumes 275 to 278 are ledgers covering groups killed in the First World War not described in any of the above mentioned records. These include those lost at sea, members of the Siberian Expeditionary Force, enemy aliens interned by Canada and miscellaneous personnel of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and the Royal Canadian Navy.
    • Volumes 279 to 302 are for Second World War Service personnel killed in Canada, including personnel involved in the British Commonwealth Air Training Program.

    Gnr Bailey was charged with desertion in 1916. Before the trial he was medically discharged. Lumbago.

    His service file, like all Canadian WWI service files, has been digitized.


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  17. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Agree, my initial thought was that marker is attempting to mimic a veteran's stone, arranged by Veterans Affairs/Legion rather than a war grave marker. Commonly seen in veterans plots that are often close to but not the same as CWGC plots in Canada. Not a CWGC responsibility and not sure what responsibility Veterans Affairs etc. have after initial placement.
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