very minimal service record -is that unusual?

Just got my grandfather's service record. It is incredibly minimal and says nothing after being sent to Burma other than that he was reported killed in action. 2 years with no information other than where he left from and that he went to Burma. And since the war diary is also missing, it is frustrating. The main page contains 14 lines for 4 years of service. Is this unusual? I am a little disappointed, for there's nothing in the record that is new information, in fact there are places not listed that we have letters for, and we know very little as it is. Also, the date of his death conflicts with the war diary of another unit that was there.

 

The short answer is no...

The records are often limited - my dad's file notes a date he "entered concessional area" and then noted the date he received his third/final wound - nothing about where he was nor what he was involved in... post that is a wealth of medical details and minor postings back in Blighty...

It's been discussed that dates of death can be arbitrary but necessary... a death date may be unknown with any degree of certainty, but the records need to show something... as a for instance, someone is MIA and never found; witnesses may note the last known date the person was seen; a date of (presumed) death is therefore "created" for the relatives/records benefit...

My dad noted the deaths of two friends in his notes - one is close to the date on record, the other was a month before the records show it...

One thing this work has taught me is that there are numerous dead ends to be found within the maze before you reach the centre and complete your goal, but only if you persist, and, are lucky... not what you might like to hear, but factual...

 

Take everything - anything you can. It's always more than nothing. Keep researching as more and more gets on the net you may get lucky. My Father's record shows a map referenece - that's it. It's where he crashed when shot down. So no use you might think but since I have been able to mine an incredule volume that even he wasn't aware of. Don't give up.

 

I'd say that the most important thing is to be sure that you've got all the documents. Could you list the form numbers that you have ? Not much can be done if they are not very full but if there are documents which have not been copied then it's not yet too late.

There was a case reported on the forum within the last couple of weeks where someone had gone back to the records office and received further paperwork with a letter of apology quite quickly.

That said, my Dad's record shows almost nothing between arriving in France and becoming part of BAOR after VE Day.

Although your Grandfather's unit diary may be missing, there may be information to be found in the diaries of superior formations and also support units.

I'd suggest putting everything that you've found so far on the forum as it's sometimes surprising just what forum members can pull out of a few lines on a record card.

 

zeezee-
Rich Payne has given you good advice.
There have been quite a few members on here who haven't received all the records, I think the MOD seem to be either understaffed or cannot do their job correctly these days.
As suggested, please post all the forms you have received and we can see which forms may be missing.
Lesley

 

Hi zeezee,

I felt the same as you when I received my grandfather's service records, but over the years I have gone back to them as new information has come in and things can often come to life from there.

But, as Rich says, they may not have sent you all the papers that actually exist.

 

Alright, thanks everyone for chiming in. I appreciate the kind words & support. I have uploaded his service record to my albums. hopefully it will be legible at this resolution. Also, maybe I was being a bit of an Eeyore. There were two new pieces of info, and there are lots of letters & jargon on one page so maybe there is gold there and I just don't know it yet. Seems very sparse though. The letter they included is something we already had - it was the telegram sent to my gran. I don't see any form numbers, but my dad scanned these in for me - they just arrived today (it's his dad) so I have asked him about that.

Here's the link - hopefully it works. I'll check in later this evening (dinner time!) and see if it looks alright or fix it if it doesn't.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1006

 

I obtained my Fathers record and apart from his Attestation in 1936 there was nothing until he went with the BEF in 39.
His recovery from France was next entry then marriage, birth of my older brother and deployment to Burma.
Very little but when I applied I had a letter warning me that Personal information from this era was limited.

john

 

Service records record key events. There aren't very many of these. Postings, promotions and reversions, entry to and departure from an operational theatre, courses and qualifications, hospitalisation, disciplinary history. So no formal training post basic, kept nose clean, wasn't sick, stayed a private - doesn't leave much to record.

 

Zee, even after copying and zooming in on the most relevant page of the service record the scan quality and handwriting make it difficult to read but there does not seem to be anything from April 1942 until time of death.
Could you get a better quality scan (eg 300 dpi) of the original document? It might give some idea of previous service/appointments that could be useful.

 

I've uploaded bigger ones. Hopefully they are better.
They don't seem to be very good. I am not sure what the problem is. I will try to resolve it over the next day or two.

Does it look like the right number of pages/forms?

p.s. my dad just sent me the proper first page and I added it to the album. He had numbered them incorrectly. At the top it says the form is B199A. He says it is just the one form.

 

mapshooter - thing is, we know he was hospitalized a few times for the usual tropical diseases - we have specifics from his letters, and it's not on the service record. it's puzzling to me - since I'm sure I've seen other service records that get into great detail about dysentery etc.

As was pointed out there is nothing from 42 when he leaves for Burma until 44 when he is killed in action. I suppose it does makes sense that there might have been nothing to add if he was in the same place the whole time and nothing of note changed.

 

I've posted higher res images finally now that I'm back on a computer that has capable graphics programs. Any feedback is appreciated. Does it look like we were sent the whole record? Also - I have no idea what all the jargon means.
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1031&pictureid=6210
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1031&pictureid=6211
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1031&pictureid=6212
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1031&pictureid=6213
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1031&pictureid=6214
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1031&pictureid=6215

 

Thought I'd drop in my two penny's worth about applying and receiving a set of Army Records.

I first wrote about it here:
BBC - WW2 People's War - Getting your Army Records
and still delighted with the vast amount of info I was able to get from the records themselves.

I wrote the following:
I am, by nature, a compulsive diary writer. Originally I used tiny diaries to record my life in the army, but I graduated over the years and I now record everything on a Sharp ZQ-770 Organizer.

I have also, during the last few years, tried to finalise my memoirs, in theory for the benefit of my children and grandchildren, but in actual fact for the simple pleasure of looking back at what I did and marvelling at my own sheer energy.

As I tightened up the record of what I had done I noticed various gaps in the chronology, mainly in my service years between 1942 and 1947, so I decided to write to the Army Historical Disclosures department, because that's the name of the place where they keep your records.

I wrote late in March 2003 and received a package from them at the end of May 2003, but WHAT an Alladin's cave of treasures came pouring out of that large, buff envelope!

There were my two driving licences, the first one dated 9-2-43 when I learnt to drive over the Yorkshire moors and the second dated 10-12-46, ready to be swapped for its civilian counterpart.

There were all my postings, there was my 'Notification of impending release' dated 19-3-47 with its Military Conduct Testimonial from which I learn I was always 'Cheerful and Hardworking and his efficiency at his work is quite outstanding'. (Their words, not mine, I hasten to add!)

There was the momentous announcement that I was 'Promoted Unpaid Acting Cpl wef (with effect from) 20/7/46' followed by a further announcement 21 days later to tell the world that I was now a fully paid corporal.

There, horror of horrors, was an item that read 'Deprived of 7 days pay for (1). Failing to comply with Bty Orders (2) AWOL from 2130 hrs on 17-6-43 to 0505 hrs on 18-6-43. Absent 7hrs 35 mtes.' (The place of this offence is shown as being in the 'Field', although I remember it being at Guelma in Tunisia and although we'd only nipped down to the nearby village wine bar we were charged as though we'd stayed out till the next morning roll call!)

The next item on the same document shows that I made up for this deplorable criminal offence by noting that on 22-8-43 I embarked (ominously shown as 'Destination Unknown') and was taken off the strength of the 8th Army. (In actual fact this was our landing in Sicily.)

Here is a list of all the medals I was entitled to, there is my height, weight and colour of my eyes. Page after page of fascinating memorabilia finishing with two dates, the date I enlisted 1-10-1942 and the date I was posted to Class A release, 21-7-47.

I cannot begin to express how much pleasure it was to get this time machine from the past, I can only recommend this splendid service to fellow ex-servicemen.

Corporal (fully paid-up) Goldstein. R. 14300260, 4th Queen's Own Hussars
Since penning the above, I have scanned all the records and they can be found in my Personal Page under the heading of Army Records.

Ron

ps
Some examples shown below

 

Ron - Thank you for posting. It is truly much more rich having personal anecdotes that support or call into question the single line that is meant to describe an event on the service record. I think I would be very lost were it not for the letters we have and some information that my father remembers from my gran. I can't tell you how much I wish we had started this process earlier - but I thought my grandmother would live until she was 120- she had plans as such and as she was rather stubborn - I expected her to hold to her promise.
The hilarious bit about going into the bar for some wine really shows how important it is to talk to veterans and get the whole story! Hearing your story really opens up the possibilities for interpretation. This process has started as mainly researching my grandfather's story, the mystery of how he died and his various postings but has sparked a general interest in my other family members who were also in WWII - specifically my step grandfather- my grandmother remarried. He was also in Egypt, North Africa. I have his war dictionaries - tiny little things. On the inside it has written in his handwriting "Edward Seymour, Cairo 1944". One is English/French the other English/German. The spine is broken at the M page on both - which includes the word "mechanic". He was a tank mechanic so I imagine he was trying to relay information about his job. My father says he was originally part of cavalry but then was moved to some other section. We don't have his service records yet. My grandmother's brother was a glider captured at Arnhem and spent a chunk of time being held prisoner and working in a mine. There is so much research to be done - I have really only started. I appreciate you taking the time to post your story.

 

Zeezee - I started off six or seven years ago with a story about Trooper Joe Small, a cousin of my wife's of whom I knew absolutely nothing but was supposedly killed at Dunkirk. An idle look at CWGC records revealed he wasn't and it all cascaded down from there. I suppose I'm kind of addicted now and I only recently got Joe's war records - they told me lots of things I didn't want to hear - not least that he couldn't be in a photograph I have of his regiment - but in those six or seven years of doing this research in the evenings and the odd weekend, I have amassed hundreds of thousands of words and files full of interesting stuff - there really is no such thing as an unknown person. He only served in the army from October 1939 until he was killed in June 1940 and yet he touched many many lives. By far and away the best move I made was to get involved in this forum - persist and good luck with it. Brian

 

Crikey Myfanwy, they sure crammed the writing together on the "last" page... looks like you got the lot, what little there is...

 

Brian - the process of revealing the story in small particles is very addicting. I have found evidence of my grandfather, little snippets here and there, and with help from others. It is always very exciting when it shows up. And to be honest, I haven't taken apart the info in the service record yet - there might be some bits there that will lead to other bits. I guess I am spoiled, because some of it has been kind of straightforward. Might have to actually do the arduous stuff now!

 

Crikey Myfanwy, they sure crammed the writing together on the "last" page... looks like you got the lot, what little there is...

I know! I need bifocals to read that stuff. I think it's weird that his entire time in Burma does not have anything from 42 to 44. We didn't know that he was in the N.W.E.F (North West Expeditionary Force) and also the Lancs Regt. Can't make out some letters just before it says that but will guess "Y.T.B.S Lancs Regt. Might be YTSS. So there are some things to look up.

Oh incidentally, i responded to another post about what I thought was 54 ambulance but was 5A - so I thought, if I made that mistake maybe someone else did and- maybe that's where the 1944 54 Ambulance records are! in 5A!
It's a long shot, I know.

 

If you know there's a file at Kew I could take a look for you when I visit next month...