Venlo Cemetery

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Please excuse me while I go lay down in a very dark room for a while!

 

Which link?

 

Link from the Venlo archives;- Home | Gemeentearchief Venlo


The cemetery from 1940 is not Venlo War Cemetery . The caption on the photograph states it was catalogued under `Dr Blumenkampstraat ` however as it contains `Dutch Graves` they reason this photograph was from an earlier cemetery ?

Venlo General Cemetery contains 15 Dutch War Graves next to each other. Location for this given as Hulsterweg, Venlo.?

Its not an easy site to use being Dutch ,some English words do not yield any results but translate them to `Dutch` and sometimes they work . Some search terms I used were the street locations `war Cemetery` yields nothing

Kyle

 

Tony I wasnt even aware of these but being native ,would they hold any information that may aid you?

Dutch War Grave Commission
Dutch War Grave Commission | Zeestraat 85 | 2518 AA Den Haag | The Netherlands
+31 (0)70 31 31 080 | info@ogs.nl | www.oorlogsgravenstichting.nl


This site here ;-
De crash van RAAF-460 EE167 in Schinveld

has refrences and comments regarding the cemetery two of the more relevent are;-

and

Kyle

 

Actually its quite easy to navigate the website. Once id worked out a few words, photos have been found and I have translated all the captions to see what they say.

 

I think I have solved it.

Having looked through photos on a variety of Dutch websites provided by Mr Jinks, I have come to the conclusion that the Cemetery we are looking for is the one in the Hospital grounds. The one we think/thought it may be, in the field next to THAT house, is full of wooden crosses for German soldiers. I havent seen one photo of a wooden cross that has an Allied name on it. All of the photos from that Cemetery show nothing or very little in the background, apart from a Gas tower occasionally.
BUT
All of the photos of Allied graves show mature trees and bushes in the background, which can only mean it is the Cemetery within the grounds of the Hospital, as aerial photos show the area surrounded by trees.

I found a proper aerial reconnaissance photo taken on 25th December 1944 (note the date) which I would like to think proves it. Previous posted photos of the first Cemetery show 8 or 9 rows of graves from 1944 and earlier photos. Only 10 complete rows can be seen by Christmas Day 1944, with space for more graves in front of those already there. Not long after that the Germans retreated. So between Chistmas and when they retreated very few extra German burial would have been added.

What do you all reckon?

 

Having overlayed the photo above onto Google Earth, and it fits precisely, the location of St Joseph's Hospital Cemetery was under the huge building on Hogeweg.

 

Its a good point about the trees ,however here is where I might throw in another spanner in regard to the wooden crosses . The photographs I posted of the individual graves because of the pressed steel construction are early 1945 and erected by the British . The Germans I presume would have used wooden crosses ? Their own graves with a iron cross marker perhaps?

The St Josephs hospital was demolished and a retirement home built is that the large building in the google overlay or is it the Archive building mentioned on
De crash van RAAF-460 EE167 in Schinveld


Kyle

 

Now that confuses the fact even more as they are two different locations, including ANOTHER new one. The first one is mentioned as being where the Venlo Archive now is, nr1 Dr Blumenkampstraat, which if you look on the map above is the building on the corner of Hogeweg and Dr Blu...straat, with the black roof with the white rectangle in the middle. That location has not been mentioned anywhere else.

The second Cemetery he mentions IS the 'German Cemetery', which may have had Allied airmen and soldiers buried in it after the Germans headed back to Berlin. Maybe the Hospital Cemetery was then full, and as seen in a 1945 photo posted earlier of the small Cemetery behind the building with the large chimney, possibly that was a civilian overflow.

 

Tony, I was under the impression that the hospital St Josephs was on Dr Blumenkampstratt ? I recall seeing something regarding the retirement homes/complex being built in its place ,which is in directly in front of the little house ? Yet on the overlay it seems streets away?

The Archive building is further down Dr Blumenkampstratt and was also mentioned as the cemetery site however this may be a mix up as a later extension to St Josephs hospital ,an outpatients building,was added and when the hospital was demolished including this later extension the Archives were built on the site of the `new` extension not the original building?
The original building (St Josephs) when demolished became retirement flats `Meeuwbeemd` which are still there today infront of the little house and on the site of the `Heros Cemetery`

Theres a comment on
De crash van RAAF-460 EE167 in Schinveld
which again refers to Allied and Germans buried together but some germans who died ie through suicide were put in Venlo General Cemetery ?

Strange how I couldnt find a link to the cemetery now I have found that many I`m confusing the issue
http://undyingmemory.net/Balsham/richardson-robert.html

"Robert was first buried in the German cemetery at Venlo (Dr. Blumenkampstraat, behind the St. Joseph hospital),Row 33, Grave 419 and re-interred in Jonkerbos on 21st October 1947"

(On a good note if the webmaster has a grave reference there must be a cemetery plan somewhere)

Kyle

 

"Tony, I was under the impression that the hospital St Josephs was on Dr Blumenkampstratt?"
It was. The main entrance was on Dr B'straat. This can be seen on some photos on the Venlo Archive. The whole Hospital grounds are seen on this pic. Hogeweg is green, Dr B'straat is orange. The Cemetery is behind the Hospital.



"I recall seeing something regarding the retirement homes/complex being built in its place ,which is in directly in front of the little house?"
There are certainly lots of houses been built on the block but most are to the bottom left of this photo. There was an old folks home built on the site of what I now call the German Cemetery. It can be seen at the top of this pic in orange. The green outline shows the size, give or take, of the hospital grounds with the Cemetery at the southern extreme.



"..........was first buried in the German cemetery at Venlo (Dr. Blumenkampstraat, BEHIND the St. Joseph hospital),Row 33, Grave 419 and re-interred in Jonkerbos on 21st October 1947"

That suggests the Hospital Cemetery!

(On a good note if the webmaster has a grave reference there must be a cemetery plan somewhere)

Exactamundo! We just have to find it. I've emailed the Archives but have yet to hear back from them

 

Word of caution Tony ,the hospital was extended post war the area the `Archives` are built on was an outpatients building built later after the war . The old peoples flats are still called `retirement flats Meeuwbeemd` and are right infront of the surviving little house on google still in your orange box .

The large chimney on the building Owen kindly posted appears to be top right hand corner (First Image)

Just for clarity

Kyle

 

Yes and it was just next to the chimney building that the 1945 Cemetery was located as seen on post no 20, the 'overflow'.

Of all the aerial photos, and including the Christmas Day one, the area where the Archives now are shows no indication of there being a Cemetery there.

Im starting to think that the person who originally stated about the Cemetery at No 1, was as in the dark about the location as we are. It could be that he had found the streetnames of Dr B and Hogeweg and presumed it would have been located on the corner 'where the Archives now are', but the Cemetery at the back of the Hospital would officially have the address of the Hospital, on Dr B, but accessable from Hogeweg, so maybe thats where the confusion may arise.

 

I have heard back from the CWGC to see what they have in their Archives, but sadly they only add to the problem of location.

"Unfortunately, none of the documentation we hold internally for Venlo Military/British Cemetery provides a specific location for the site.

There is a map reference, GSGS 4042, Sheet 2A/3A Z.0821, but this doesn't equate to any of the maps that we have access to.

Having done a little more sleuthing however, I believe Venlo BC/Venlo MC were plots within Venlo General Cemetery.

This site still exists today and is known as Venlo Algemene Begraafplaats in Dutch"


So we are no further down the line, unless that map reference can be pinned down.

There is a link to the maps here

but sheet 2A/3A doesn't have Venlo on it. Venlo appears on sheet 3, but then as far as I am aware (am useless at cross references) the co-ordinates don't tally either.

 

I make that Amsterdam!

 

Hello Tony,

I do not think the General cemetery was used to accomodate the of plots referred to as Venlo British (War) Cemetery . There are mentions of German dead who died by ways other than combat being laid to rest here rather than the (Temp) Heros Cemetery ? Indicating at least two seperate cemeteries.

The modern coordinates for Venlo Algemene Begraafplaats are GPS Coordinates: 51.3538800, 6.1566900 (findagrave) and if you want to try and clarify any points with the cemetery staff/manager their contact details are:-
Municipality of Venlo
Cemetery administration
Hulsterweg 19
5912 PL VENLO
Telephone: (077) 359 69 20
Fax: (077) 354 29 30
E-mail: info@venlo.nl



Kyle

 

Exactly!

 

I have just finished going through all the men buried at Jonkerbos, and cross referenced them to their plots at Venlo, if they were originally buried there.

I didnt realise that there were so many who were buried at Venlo. If there had been upto 200 then they could quite easily have been buried in the 'German' Cemetery on Dr Blumenkampstraat, but I have accounted for 414 men, with quite a few more Polish airmen not included because the CWGC do not have records of their original burial locations. So numbers could be about 440 men. Theres no way that that many could fit in the 'German Heroes' Cemetery along with all of the German casualties too. The aerial photo from Christmas Day 1944 shows what looks like a pretty full Cemetery at the back of the Hospital. The last burials were 19th November 1944.

Its strange that the only photos that clearly show Allied airmen names are in the Cemetery surrounded by trees (the Hospital site) with many, many similar graves in the background, and yet all the very neatly tended graves with flowers and crosses in the German Heroes Cemetery dont clearly show any Allied names anywhere. I dont think the Germans would have tended any Allied graves half as muchas shown, nor added masses of flowers to their graves.