Vehicle Identification

I posted this photo in http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/48383-help-with-marions-dads-service-record/ but have not had any responses, so thought I would try it in this section.

Could someone please tell me the makes of the motorcycle and the various jeeps.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Regards

Pete

 

Yes. A BSA M20 motorcycle. If I could read the census number I could give more details.

There does not seem to be any way of identifying the Jeeps.

Mike

 

Thanks for the feedback; just out of interest, if the census number could be read, what information would it provide?

Regards

Pete

 

As Owen and Mike have said, Definitely a BSA WM20. The second figure of the census number looks to be a '5' and the third a '4' - The first is probably also a '5' and that is really the only one which fits with the look of the machine. If I squint, I'd say that it's somewhere in the region of C5547903. If so, it would have had engine and frame number WM20 107203 and was delivered under contract S5209 - scheduled for delivery at 2000 machines per month commencing July 1944 which would give this one a production date around September 1944.

Allowing for delivery via RAOC Chilwell, it means the photo can't be earlier than very late 1944.

Contract S5209 was for 12000 machines. Census numbers C5545518 - C5557517 / Frames WM20 104818 - WM20 116817

 

Thanks Rich for your comprehensive feedback; much appreciated.

Based on your calculations that the photograph could not have been taken until late 1944 he would have been in Italy at that time; so the bike was either shipped to Italy or the photograph was taken after his return to the UK in 1945.

I will assume that there are no other clues in the photograph which would help provide a more accurate date / location ... but maybe ... just maybe!

Regards (and thanks again to everyone for your help so far)

Pete

 

The Jeep on the left has the number 10 on its Arm of Service square. This was a code for 21 Army Group HQ in NW Europe. In Italy it was used by HQ 5 Base Sub Area.

One Jeep at least has two headlights and the bike has no blackout mask on its headlight. These suggest late war or post war.

Mike

 

It's always difficult to identify these markings without being able to see all the signs clearly. The Arm of Service plate looks to have a Corps Troops white bar above it to me and to have a horizontally split red / blue Royal Artillery background. At Corps level, the AoS serial '10' seems to have indicated a Survey Regt., R.A. for the 1943 - 45 period.

The question is...which corps ? The bike has the vestiges of some blackout masking above the headlamp suggesting it had been modified during the closing stages of the war when enemy air activity had more or less ceased. He has a good sun tan and is wearing shoes and shirtsleeves. The trees are in leaf so probably not the winter of 1944/45 - Summer 1945 in Italy would be my guess.

 

Thanks again Rich

I know he was with 8th Survey Regiment but as he was a driver I don't know whether he was with HQ or one of the troops (or both). The photographs were the last throw of the dice to see if they yielded any information which might help determine this.

Regards

Pete

 

Rich is correct of course.

I have been trying to read the sign to the right of the '10'. It is an RA Battery Sign. It seems to end in a '2' but there should be two letters in front of it. This will tell all. Even a partial reading would allow a comparison with the War Establishment Table. If all the Jeeps belong to the same section and that really is a '2' then there are two possibilities.

OC2 is 1 Section of 2 Troop, Survey which has four jeeps.
OX2 is Observation Section, HQ Observation Troop which has four jeeps and a motorcycle.

Mike

 

Mike

Thanks for the information; you have better eyesight than me!

I will contact the family to see if they have a clearer photograph and post it here if available.

Regards

Pete

 

Hi, Message for Rich Payne ..

I was watching the Gary Lineker program on his late Grandads time serving in Italy and spotted this motorbike, would you be ble to id it from the picture enclosed.

regards

Derrick

 

The colonel was so displeased with us that he summoned all officers to Fakenham this afternoon to deliver a grand “rocket” as the army slang describes a severe reproof.
More than by good luck than judgement, I was not included in this rocket. I had spent the whole of yesterday in my truck, sedately standing beside the driver in the accepted stance of the RA officer on convoy. Others including I regret to say, my Troop Commander, Battery Captain and I believe the Major forsook their vehicles for the more manoeuvrable motorcycles of their Sergeant Majors and on these made excursions into wayside taverns to slake their thirst. My Sergeant Major happened to be on leave so I was not tempted.
A bit unfair as the story was in UK but the Bike is in Tunisia.

Here is another one from the same officer in 67th Field Regt RA (TA) 1st Infantry Div.:
On one occasion I dashed out on a motorbike to a spot just this side of the Gab-gab to investigate the very serious news that two Tiger Tanks had broken through and were lying hull down in hiding waiting for the next phase of the attack. However after a very gingerly approach, I discovered they were Churchill’s and returned with the glad news for the doubting Brigadier who had demanded the investigation.

What Bike is it please.

 

For a while after the German Surrender in Tunisia Allied forces were keen to use captured vehicles until this was banned.
I am sure someone will recognise this combo but not being a biker I don't have a clue.

 

Yes Derrick, the pîvot for the field stand in front of the the saddle spring is distinctive and confirms the other clues. It is a BSA WM20 with a serial beginning C475 so from contract C13290 which was delivered from November 1942 onwards.

 

Axis stuff is not really my thing, but the pressed steel frame and fork construction is pretty indicative of a Zündapp...A KS750 I think with the large grab handle on the front mudguard being a field modification. I believe that one of the problems with using captured German motorcycles was that the flat twin engines had a distinctive exhaust note which was almost guaranteed to be greeted by a quick burst of Bren.

 

I thought all German Motorbikes were BMW! Thanks for that.
What is the BSM's Bike in unlucky 13 above, it was obvious from the stories that they were used for all sorts of jobs but mainly escorting the gun convoys.
The officers seem to have been fond of racing round on them before they acquired Jeeps seemingly at Anzio when attached to the 5th Army.
I am very aware of the Royal Enfield bikes and knew a lot of people who built them but cant recall seeing one "on active service".
Just for a parting shot I have a photo of this bike escorting a Jeep near Florence in Aug 1944 and one in Marradi in October 1944.
67th Field Regt again. Are they the same as the BSM's Bike. I ask this because 1st Div lost all their vehicles to the Scottish 51st Div in Tunisia in Jun 1943.
So the ones they used in Italy were presumably new ones from the UK.

 

The sidecar combination in 13 and 14 looks to be the same captured Zündapp to me.

Royal Enfields were not used a great deal overseas. There were some WD/Cs with the BEF in 1940 and the Australians had some of that model in Palestine...but the later ohv WD/CO seems to have been primarily restricted to home service. There were question marks about their ground clearance and the strength of the frames when subjected to off-road use.

The two new photographs are something of an eyesight test !. The first one looks to have telescopic forks, so a Matchless G3L...and the second has a rear mudguard that looks to be BSA WM20. Both were in Italy in fair numbers.

 

Just a side note that might be of interest. Harley took a shot at an opposed twin as well.

Harley-Davidson XA - Wikipedia

 

I have been thinking of posting them for ages, so as you seem to enjoy the task decided to do so.
Thanks for the help. The one in Florence does look different, a bit like a trials bike If that is a correct term.
The one on posting 13 I thought was a British issue but looking closer and learning from your notes, it is probably a captured bike.
The rider is in fact Major David Shepherd Commander of 266 Battery he lost his borrowed bike in the fighting in the dark on Banana Ridge. After it broke down he abandoned it. The Germans then shot it with an anti tank gun and a spandau so perhaps he commandeered that one after the fighting at Medjez ended. To make up his shortfall.
That helps to put the photo into context.
I was surprised how many bikes an artillery regiment had at that time. It seems to have been standard practice to put officers through motorcycle courses including cross country scrambling whilst on their Officer Cadet Training.
Lt Beadle ( who wrote the notes I used) spent most of the battle at Banana Ridge riding round as Liaison Officer between RHQ and the various hot spots as the fighting erupted before they had set up their communications.
One Despatch rider was killed in an ambush.
The 67th FR RSM commandeered a German Half Track after the fighting as personal transport but some time later was killed in a fatal Road Traffic Accident. Just after that a blanket ban was placed on the use of captured vehicles.
If my memory is correct, I think he had a collision at a crossroad with a Sherman Tank.