Valentine Archer tank destroyer

Bringing this back up, can anyone confirm if the Valentine 17pdr SP were used in the Italian campaign?

 

Combover
can't recall having the Valentine with 17 pdr BUT we did have some M10's in the liri Valley and 17 pdrs towed by the RA but they were all lost at Cassino- didn;t see the Firelys until October '44

Cheers

 

According to this website (http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/spg/selfpropelledguns.htm) 7th Anti-Tank Regiment, RCA used the Archer in Italy in Oct 1944 . The footnote refers to a photograph in Tools of the Trade: Equipping the Canadian Army by Doug Knight on page 53.

Also look at post #19 of this thread for a photo:
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/25399-7th-anti-tank-regiment-rca/

 

The RA Notes record quite a lot about the introduction of this equipment.

For Op Overlord the RA used lease lend M10 tank destroyers in the Atk Regiments of the assault divisions (so they could be used in the surf if necessary), in the Atk regiments of the armoured divisions and the corps anti tank regiments. Some M10s were upgunned to take the 17 Pdr, but the numbers were initially limited by industrial action in the factory.

The RA concept of SP anti tank guns was for them to act as mobile anti tank screen which could be adjusted to meet an enemy threat. This happened on a couple of occasions in Normandy, including 9th June South of Bayeaux against the Pz Lehr. (The 6 Pdr was intended to accompany the infantry while the 17 Pdr towed eqpt formed a backstop.) The reports on the M10 were generally very favourable. The detachments wanted to be able to use an MG from under cover, and some overhead cover and a 17 Pdr all of which would enable them to provide Atk support onto objectives accompanying the infantry. This was a specification perfectly met by the Sherman firefly for an RAC role. The gunner hierarchy decided that the Archer was much better suited to the concept of SP anti tank guns. It used the British Valentine chassis, an important consideration for a post war (and lease lend) world. The open top and lack of traverse had the added advantage of reminding the detachments that they were in the RA not the RAC.

The war diaries of 102 RA include something abotu the introduction of the valentine 17 Pdr SP. Try the entry for 7th Nov 1944 102 Anti Tank Regt

 

I am trying to find evidence of their use in Italy due to there being very little in the way of photographic evidence to show them in use there.

 

Just to add to this the History notes they are fully mechanised in September - which contradicts that slightly, another 53 Div thing to investigate... Great news to know the exact detail of Valentine for OP mind...

 

I don't think these are technically OP Tanks, rather the Troop commanders' vehicles. I would have thought that the RA establishment committee would have choked on their pink gins at the thought of issuing OP vehicles to direct fire equipment. There was a problem finding a suitable mount for Troop commanders in RA Atk units. The RA Tradition is that Officers site guns and are in command, but are not themselves part of a gun detachment. This is fine for towed equipment or even SP field guns where the Gun position officer is in a soft skin vehicle or a command post in the same way as a mounted officer could lead a section of horse artillery. Not easy to do if the SP Guns are carrying out their job in a tank battle. Early in Normandy it was discovered that ATk troop commanders ended up running around on foot in the middle of a tank battle. Several gallantry awards were given for this kind of activity, including the DSO for the Capt Bramald DSO,mentioned in the 102 (NH) Atk Regt RA WD

Valentine tanks seems a sensible solution. Its mechanically similar to the 17 Pdr SP and has radio comms. I suspect Post war ATk Troop commanders may have ended up in Ferret Scout Cars.

 

Hello Combover,

Scroll down through this Legion Magazine story (Prof Terry Copp) to see a good sharp image of a 7 Anti Tank Regiment RCA vehicle in action in Cesena, 1944.
http://legionmagazine.com/en/index.php/2010/02/cold-october-rain/

Here is the Collections Canada archival data for the image. Caption reads: Canadian armoured anti-tank vehicle fires down the streets at enemy-occupied buildings across the River Savio. Street was under enemy fire at the time photo was taken.
http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=3240653

Here’s a link to a 2011 thread in this forum – smaller pic of what looks to be the same vehicle. Similar puppet lashed to the front of the hull, anyway.
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/25399-7th-anti-tank-regiment-rca/

 

18 is an odd number, given troops of 4 guns. My understanding is that in NW Europe these was one 17-pr SP troop per bty in an inf div.

 

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675041544_tanks_German-tank-grounds_Valentine-tank_antitank-gun


76mm Anti Tank Gun Valentine mounted - firing.

 

Gunners of Canada pg 254 refers to 7 ATk Regt RCA in mid Dec 44 (ie shortly before the Cdn corps moved from Italy to NWE). States "Finally, 17-pounders and M10's of the 7th Anti-tank Regiment engaged the structures, and by chipping away the stone with armour piercing shell brought down the towers." 7 ATk was the corps ATk regt. One tower had been brought down by a AOP observed precision shoot using 7.2-in How, fighter bombers missed the rest.

 

Just for future reference it emerged on another thread here that:
Valentine 17 Pdr SP were employed:
3 x Valentine 17 Pdr SP
1 x Valentine as OP

So there would be 12 per Div, although some reading has suggested some Regiments reached 2 Troops of Valentine 17 Pdr SP and 1 of towed 17 Pdr by the end of the war.

Also... cracking vid of it firing, any idea on unit ID?

 

I wish I knew the source of the underlined bit...!