Valentine Archer tank destroyer

Smudger - well NO - the real clues are in the driving sprocket and the rear idler
plus - there were NO good Tigers and they should all have been aborted before birth !

Cheers

 

I would agree with Owen the sprockets are rear mounted on the machines that have been posted up.

kinda foolish leaving the peice facing ass towards the enemy, usually the ass is the weakest spot (soooo many innuendo's its sickening)

 

kinda foolish leaving the peice facing ass towards the enemy

But soo much easier to scoot away from trouble.
Noel

 

They key point was lowering the profile as well, which was best achieved by having the driver at the 'rear' so to speak. As you can see... not a very tall tank...

 

True. Schoolboyed

Very badly schoolboyed

Sorry

 

we knew what you meant... people keep referring to me as the guy with a tank.....its a carrier not a tank

 

Well as mentioned earlier, they went to the Infantry Divisional Anti-tank Regiments, the first arriving in late 1944. 43rd, 49th and 51st Divs all reported their entitlement of 12 SP 17-prs by January 1945. 52nd and 53rd lagged somewhat behind, not receiving theirs until late Jan early Feb 1945.

In the period just before the Rhine crossing, all British Inf Divs bar one (43rd) were reporting just above or below the newly revised entitlement of 18 SP 17-prs for Inf Divs. The Armoured Divs and the Corps Anti-tank Regts all retained the M10 as their SP equipment.

I wouldn't actualy desribe them as a stop-gap myself. They were, a little like the Comet, something that took a woefully long amount of time to get into service, but that worked when it did arrive, and would have been most welcome in Normandy. The layout was (I think) unique, with the gun laid along the length of the rear deck of the chassis, requiring a good deal of co-operation between driver and gunner to get the target lined up, but the same applied to a Stug or SP Panzerjager.

Gary

 

Gary, do you have a source regarding 53 Divs allocation?

 

They're from 21AG AFV returns covering most weeks between early Jan 1945 and VE-Day (there are some gaps in the records). Copies are currently buried under other stuff (as per normal), but the basic details were six Archers in late Jan 1945, increased to twelve by the end of Feb (which was their unit entitlement). The returns for early Mar 1945 are AWOL, but by the time of the Rhine crossing they were near enough the new UE of eighteen Archers along with everyone except 43rd Div.

On a related note, 53rd Div reported eleven Valentine tanks to act as OP tanks for the SP equipments by the end of Feb 1945, all Mk XI models.

Gary

 

Smudger - well NO - the real clues are in the driving sprocket and the rear idler
plus - there were NO good Tigers and they should all have been aborted before birth !

Cheers

The front is very distinctive on the Valentine, the flate is five sided and if you look at the Archer you see the same plate.

This site has a few links for further sources.

Britain's Self Propelled 17 pdr, Valentine, Mk I, Archer - World War II Vehicles, Tanks, and Airplanes

Regards
Tom

 

Hi guys

Been doing a bit of digging around and so hopefully can had a bit more to this thread.

All Archers (called Valentine 17pdr SP at the time) were new build vehicles, the Valentine tank production stopped in May 1944 and the production of the Archer started the same month ( I think at a different factory). The vehicle wasn’t it seems a ‘stop gap’ measure more a planned measure to provide the infantry with AT support that was quicker to deploy than towed 6pdr/17pdr’s and therefore able to keep up with fast moving units. The Archer was fitted with an infantry radio (WS.18) which was also used by RA artillery observers…makes sense I suppose at least it could be man-packed.

800 were ordered but only 655 delivered before production was stopped. Used in Britain until 50’s then sold off to Egypt and maybe some to Jordan. Some Egyptian ones ended up in Israel after being captured during the Suez Crisis in 1956 ( see picture) after we ended up facing our own Archer’s in combat…shades of the Falklands methinks?

Archer used standard late Valentine suspension and wheels. The hull is similar to Valentine but not the same: plate thickness and the fighting compartment to engine bulkhead being the main changes. In Valentine the engine bulkhead is a light, flat removable separation between the two compartments. In Archer it is a reinforced, curved permanent part of the hull structure used to support the weight of the 17pdr gun. Archer had thinner side armour than Valentine to save weight; 20mm as opposed to the Mk.X, at 43mm- this was a common ploy in Valentine design to save weight against heavier armament. Mk.II gun tanks had 60mm side amour, Mk.III and V had 50mm and later makes had 43mm.

In effect the chassis was the same…driver at front and engine at the rear (with rear drive sprockets as mentioned). BUT to save overall length the 17pdr was fitted facing the rear and overhanging the engine compartment. The advantage became obvious…very low silhouette, easier to ‘shoot and scoot’ etc. A disadvantage…the main gun recoiled into the drivers compartment so the driver had to vacate his seat before firing so he didn’t end up getting crushed (nice) by the breech.

Same powerplant and engine layout as late GMC Valentines; 3 aircleaners and fan drive for the fans , identical in appearance in the IV, V, Vi, VII, VIIa, IX, X, and XI.

A lot of confusion over the wheels; as Valentine production was running down, a different type of wheel arrangement and suspension was tried out. It had 6x 24 inch wheels on link arm suspension and the Archer was planned to have the same. The modified Valentine would be called Vanguard but Stalin refused to accept them, demanding more normal Valentines instead. As the Vanguard was cancelled so was the proposed suspension system/wheels so the Archer was fitted with late welded dish pattern Valentine wheels ( 24'' large wheels and 19 1/2'' smaller wheels).

Secondary armament was a .303 Bren and two Stens; The Canadians in some cases also fitted .30 cal Brownings above the driver’s station firing forward; this is in the picture posted by Owen IWM B14817.

IWM B14817 purports to show an Archer unloading from a raft after being ferried across flooded countryside near Kranenburg in Germany, 23 February 1945. Another theory is that it’s being loaded on the opposite side (see the two crew looking rearward?). A later photo shows another Archer being loaded to the same raft nose to nose (this too as a .30 cal). Both Archers incl. the one on IWM B14817 are of the Canadian 3th Inf. Div and have the following numbers… S279769 and S279717. AoS is 46 on a red/blue RA background and on the side is a blue square with a red top left quarter with a white L2 which I believe is Canadian 3rd AT Regiment?

Some great photos of the Bovington Archer on the following site http://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=3295 and I believe Wheatcroft have a pair one obtained from Israel maybe they’re runners anybody know?

Smudge

 

.

 

Serjeant (No.1 of gun), driver-mechanic (AFV), gunner-mechanic and gunner-operator formed the SP crew. Also making up the detachment was a Driver, IC, with 15-cwt truck and three gun numbers.

Gary

 

Some pictures of the Archer at the Overloon War Museum in Holland: