I know that Nazi Germany was some way off producing A nuclear weopen but according to the allways correct Wikapedia in efforts to produce a working reactor. "In efforts with Dr. Robert Döpel at Leipzig in May 1942, a fission chain reaction had been sustained by using two concentric shells of uranium oxide separated by heavy water. However, Heisenberg failed to provide any means for controlling the reaction. It quickly resulted in a runaway nuclear reaction which ended with a massive steam explosion." Ok so the mass didnt o critical but it was a runaway reaction, this is so close. Any one know where I can find more information on this and other events. Kev
Post in theme: does nazis ever sent uranium to Japan as I've read in some bélles-léttres books? Yes, at the end of the war, on board Uboat blah blah (cant be arsed to look it up) but surrendered to the US navy, it never made it there. Kev
Yes, at the end of the war, on board Uboat blah blah (cant be arsed to look it up) but surrendered to the US navy, it never made it there. So books were partially right anyway read this: According to declassified Magic transcripts of signals to Japan's embassy in Berlin, General Toranosuke Kawaishima first requested Czechoslovakian Uranium on 7 July 1943. In an exchange of queries from the Germans up to November 1943 questioning its intended use, Kawashima gave very guarded answers that it was for an experimental jet fuel project. A handful of Japanese I-class submarines collected Uranium oxide from French ports, but none made it all the way back to Japan. Italian transport submarines in German service numbered UIT-24 and UIT-25 are thought to have transported early shipments, but no precise proof exists. It is not known how much material Japan received from Germany, but at least one shipment, 560kg of Uranium Oxide which was sent to Japan by a German Unterseeboot U-234 was intercepted after surrender at sea in 1945 [3]. Unterseeboot 234 (U-234) was sent to Japan in April 1945 to deliver 560 kg of unprocessed uranium oxide for the Japanese program, as well as a disassembled Me-262 jet fighter and assorted German military technology. Earlier in 1944, U-219 and U-195 had reached Djakarta with 12 broken down components for the V-2 rocket. Two Japanese military officials and a number of German experts were also on board. The nuclear cargo was labeled "U-235," perhaps as a mislabeling of the submarine name, or perhaps in reference to the fissile isotope of uranium, uranium-235. It is extremely unlikely, though, that it was truly 560 kg of uranium-235—this would have been some eight times more of the rare element than was produced by the entire U.S. effort, and enough for Nazi Germany to have built many atomic bombs of their own with great ease.[citation needed] The author David Irving in his book "Virus House" records that the Nazi codename for Uranium oxide was "Preparation 38." The U-boat was ordered to surrender on May 10, 1945, two days after the overall German surrender, by Admiral Dönitz. To avoid capture, the two Japanese officials, Lieutenant Commander Hideo Tomonaga and Lieutenant Commander Genzo Shoji, committed suicide and were buried at sea the next day. The submarine was boarded by US forces on May 14 and the cargo fell into U.S. hands [4]. The US Navy records that they only recovered 560 kg of un-enriched Uranium oxide. There is however a significant discrepancy in U-234's cargo manifest upon leaving Germany and the manifest drawn up by the US Navy according to "Japan's Secret War" by Robert K Wilcox. Others claim the quantity of uranium was enough to build two atomic bombs, but this would require that it was already substantially enriched. It would have also meant that Germany could have developed its own bomb, which it did not. That amount of uranium, if enriched to around the 90% needed for an atomic bomb, would only provide around 3.92 kg of bomb-grade material, far less than needed for an atomic bomb (the "Little Boy" uranium weapon dropped on Hiroshima used over 60 kg of uranium-235). from here: Japanese atomic program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and here: German nuclear energy project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes, at the end of the war, on board Uboat blah blah (cant be arsed to look it up) but surrendered to the US navy, it never made it there. Kev General Kawashima was interviewed on a Japanese TV channel in 1983 and confirmed that 2 tons were shipped to japanese territory during WW2. That is the amount which arrived. Much more was lost with U-boats which never completed their voyages, including 560kg with U-234 and 800kg waiting for I-52 at Lorient in July 1944. Kawashima was attempting to procure Uranium for the Army NI Project under Dr Yoshio Nishina. The Army project was pretty much a joke and it was the Navy F-Go project which made real progress. JNFC-Nichitsu conducted a huge survey of Korea and Manchuria between March and May 1944 which discovered ten sources of fergussonite ore. Between March 1944 and the end of the war these ten mines yielded in excess of 500,000 tons of Fergussonite. The Japanese Navy also procured about 7,000kg of Uranium stocks in China at the start of the war. There was an even more secret project within F-Go called F-NZ. This project had a secret laboratory in mines above Hungnam (called Konan by the Japanese). Hungnam was a huge industrial centre for the Nichitsu fertiliser works. In the industrial process which yielded amonia heavy water was a by-product. The F-go project is supposed to have successfully developed a nuclear reactor during WW2 according to prof Bunsaku Arakatsu, but little is known of it. https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb/home/japan-s-a-bomb-project
On this subject matter...does anyone jnow what happened to the heavy water supply spirited away by French ending up in 1940 Wormwood Scrubs ..Ibelieve as wests only supply at time it was again moved for safety and security during blitz. Ican hazard a guess its eventual destination but where did it go on 40 whilst on route...
POSSIBLY Canada, the Montreal Laboratory spent 1942 looking at a "third way" of plutonium production using a heavy water-moderated reactor. Their main supplies were from the U.S. by then...who cut off supplies to force the Canadians to assist instead in their plutonium production plans. Althrough the 1943 Quebec Agreement later put the main emphasis behind MANHATTAN as the Americans wanted...the Canadians later built a new laboratory and reactor at Chalk River and were producing their OWN fissionables by very later 1945 using their perfected heavy water process, in the "ZEEP" reactor, and this was the basis of Canada's indigenous nuclear generating capacity after the war.
So Canada maybe dipped into the original stash as they say..sounds reasonable..Original ghosting away from Norway before infamous Telemark by the French seems long sighted and a bit of a coup by the French int services..vive la France.
Original ghosting away from Norway before infamous Telemark by the French seems long sighted and a bit of a coup by the French int services..vive la France Not really. Paris had long been a centre for atomic physics....or what passed for it in the 1930s! ...clustered around the Juliot-Curies. After all - they got THAT away....and IIRC NOT the Belgian uranium that had been rushed south to France! For a long time towards the end of the war, "heavy water" as a reaction moderator was regarded as a bit of a dead end UNTIL the Canadians made it work!
Phil, as usual amazing depth of knowledge. I bet you are banned from all you local pub quizzes! PS. Still working with our Aussie friend re Crete, hope to get out there with him next year. Should clear up a hole in RN records. Mike
Even so the French were quick to react to get hold of the Norwegian stock at that time. So am I reading you correctly and the following Telemark missions neednt have been completed as heavy water in German hands was maybe not the problem we now perceive it. If thats not the case then the French obtaining the same factories output before ww2 was farsighted.
So am I reading you correctly and the following Telemark missions neednt have been completed as heavy water in German hands was maybe not the problem we now perceive it. That is, unfortunately....correct :mellow:
Well bugger me with a tickling stick...Youve just blown out my watching the Heros video again. So Germany could never have used the stuff for a bomb...The whole v2 panic after y service intercepts alarming Churchill thru AV Jones and co and all the lives lost following was a waste....Bugger... All my reading of Churchill and co has to go out of the window now on a major issue of ww2? Dont cha just hate that.
Think of it THIS way... http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/battle-specifics/14623-st-nazaire-futile-heroism-6.html#post286085 It's about removing potentialities the Telemark Raid was an incredible feat....the raiders didn't know that ultimately it was to be futile. Nor did the British/Norwegian governments when it was carried out. You have to remember that a lot of the early British atomic research, and to an extent the American too wasn't JUST about building "our" bomb - it was ALSO about checking out what little we found out about what the GERMANS were doing - THEN trying it out for ourselves to see if it could work FOR THEM! A sort of "counter-experimentation" Point is...when the Telemark Raid occured, the Allies DID think that the Germans COULD possibly use heavy water as a moderator... look at the dates in the two stories... Montreal Laboratory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Norwegian heavy water sabotage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ...but only WE can know - retrospectively of course! - that the GERMANS were never going to be able to do it that way! EDIT: All my reading of Churchill and co has to go out of the window now on a major issue of ww2? Dont cha just hate that. A lot of it HAS to anyway - know that we know about ULTRA
Gosh do you guys ever read history books, or do you just wing it? Konrad Beyerle, Wilhem Groth, Paul Harteck, and Johannes Jensen: Über Gaszentrifugen: Anreicherung der Xenon-, Krypton- und der Selen-Isotope nach dem Zentrifugenverfahren (Chemie, 1950) As Harteck himself noted after the war, He and Dr Hans Suess were tipped off in advance the Hydro Ferry was to be attacked by Norewegian resistance so they sent a dummy shipment on the Ferry and after the Ferry was sunk sent the real Heavy Water by an alternate means. That is why when a barrel of H/W was raised from Lake Tinnsjø recently the drum contained only 2% H/W. Incidentally the 185kg of H/W sold to France in April 1940 was shipped to Perth Scotland and then to Paris only to be recaptured when France was invaded. Not that Germany needed the Norwegian H/W that desperately. The I.G. Farben plant at Leuna near Mersberg was producing Heavy Water throughout the war. Before Allied air raids smashed Vemork Harteck had all the H/W electrolysis chambers dismantled and shipped to a forested location 4km outside Keil to continue production. Then there was also the plant west of Hamburg. Here's a witness account by a former Kz inmate as recounted by his grandson. "Stefan Strzelczyk in 1939 served as radio operator in Polish Army. During the campaign of September 1939 he was captured by Nazis and held in several POW camps in Poland and later in Germany. From there he was sent to forced labour near Bremen. Working as a driver he often travelled to Hamburg. He spoke German fluently. During one of those trips in 1944 an Allied bombing raid happened. After it was over, it turned out one of the bombs hit the field outside the city and the water started coming from under the surface creating quite a big pond. In no time german soldiers with heavy equipment appeared and started to bury the water. They evacuated people from there and told them to stay away from it because that water is "heavy" and it's poisonous. Grandfather didn't know what the "heavy water" term ment until I explained it to him, when I heard the story, so it's not like he made it up. Not much later the orders came to transport all prisoner workers to nearest camps as allies were advancing east. The German farmer, for who my grandfather worked, knew they will be executed so decided to save my grandfather. He helped him move toward Allied forces and gone with him through 3 checkpoints telling soldiers that my grandfather is his brother in law and left him as far west as he could, then came back to his family. My grandfather has crossed the front and was put into the transitory camp. Till the end of war he worked as a guard in POW camp in France. He came back to Poland in 1946." You guys are so gulliable. Just because the history books say Germany had no heavy water you believe it's true. Not so much bacon frying. More like sheep bleeting.
Kiwiguy....kindly look back a few posts. NOONE said the Germans didn't have any... In fact - what I SPECIFICALLY said was - that the GERMANS were never going to be able to do it that way! Which is something COMPLETELY different. Remember this? In efforts with Dr. Robert Dopel at Leipzig in May 1942, a fission chain reaction had been sustained by using two concentric shells of uranium oxide separated by heavy water. However, Heisenberg failed to provide any means for controlling the reaction. It quickly resulted in a runaway nuclear reaction which ended with a massive steam explosion Heavy water couldn't be used as a reaction moderator in the way the Germans intended.
Oh, and incidently... so they sent a dummy shipment on the Ferry That is why when a barrel of H/W was raised from Lake Tinnsjø recently the drum contained only 2% H/W. I saw the same documentary - and the results were somewhat different from your interpretation...I.E. 100% different - the results that is, as well as the contents of Barrel 26... In 2005, an expedition retrieved a barrel (numbered "26") from the bottom of the lake. Its contents of heavy water matched the concentration noted in the German records, and confirmed that the shipment was not a decoy.
Gosh do you guys ever read history books, or do you just wing it? ... You guys are so gulliable. Just because the history books say Germany had no heavy water you believe it's true. Not so much bacon frying. More like sheep bleeting. Excuse me, but are you being ironic ot literal?
Scuze me kiwi guy...try reading a bit more and not tickling your ego...My Telemark remark was in relation to a movie not real life. Phylo was good enough to go into detail on a matter I was not really querying thanks phylo..my question and all I wanted to know was what happened to the original French nabbed water..you have ungraciously answered it now Dont expect any thanks though and as for sheep mine probably have more flocking sense than you do laddie.
Kiwiguy....kindly look back a few posts. NOONE said the Germans didn't have any... Apologies Phylo. I misdirected my remarks However they did have sources of heavy water from plants at: Merano, Italy (near Bolzano) Vemork, Norway 16km west of Hamburg 4km from Kiel IG Farben Amonia-Nitrate/Heavy Water plant at Leuna Heavy water couldn't be used as a reaction moderator in the way the Germans intended. Quite correct because they adopted and developed a Uranium isotope separation method which did not require: Nuclear reactors Thermal diffusion (Clusius-Dickel method) Isotope sluices (Bagge method) Centrifuges (Harteck process) Zippe thermal convection centrifuges (Martin-Kuhn method) Gaseous diffusion (Manhattan Project K-25 plant method) Mass spectrometer (Heinz Ewald patented method) Instead in late 1942 they adopted a photo-fission method invented by a team of Japanese scientists and published in scientific papers by Sakae Shimizu and Bunsuku Arakatsu plus others in late 1941. Allow me to quote to you from Farm Hall transcripts: *[FONT="] Gerlach:[/FONT][FONT="] It is not true that we neglected the separation of isotopes. On the contrary, we discussed the whole thing at Tubingen in February and there was a meeting at Munich. Clusius, Harteck and I said that this [FONT="]photochemical[/FONT] thing must be done. It took til the end of the year before the people who could do it were got togetherand the spectrograph obtainedand special accommodation acquired, as the Litz Institute had been smashed up.[/FONT] *Hahn: I think it’s absolutely impossible to produce one ton of uranium 235 by separating isotopes. Weizsäcker: What do you do with these centrifuges? Harteck: You can never get pure “235” with the centrifuge, but I don’t believe that it can be done with the centrifuge. Wirtz: No certainly not. Hahn: Yes but they could do it with the mass spectrographs. Ewald has some patent. [FONT="]Diebner:[/FONT][FONT="] There is also a photochemical process. [/FONT] At a lecture of the group by Heisenberg on 14 August 1945 the following discussion occurred speculating how the Allies achieved the A-bomb. After mentioning the Clusius Dickel tube method, Harteck said: [FONT="] ...The other way is photo-chemical, that you just go on trying at it with a big staff. As soon as one has the photo-chemical process, it is much cheaper than the mass spectrograph and in any case, naturally for any other purposes you would want to try out the Isotope Lock [Bagge’s Isotope Sluice] and the centrifuge and such methods, for one should not rely on one method. If you consider this whole program of work with the heavy water and low temperatures and the photochemistry and all that involves, I’m not certain these fellows [Americans] can do it at all. [/FONT] [FONT="] *Operation “Epsilon” (6[/FONT][FONT="]-[/FONT][FONT="]7[/FONT][FONT="]August 1945) National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD, RG 77, Entry 22, Box 164 [/FONT]
