Unit records of soldiers' prewar civilian trades/occupations

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by Alan Allport, Aug 29, 2010.

  1. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    Hello everyone,

    The project I'm working on at the moment is a social history of the Army during the Second World War, and one of the things I'm really interested in finding more about is the prewar occupational backgrounds of wartime conscript and volunteer soldiers.

    In previous trips to Kew I've been able to find some information about this, partly from the massive WOCCI card database that was kept of all personnel; and I'm hoping to return next year to dig around some more.

    Do any of you happen to have documents that would have this kind of information (for example muster rolls/summaries of attestation papers) for a particular battalion, unit, etc? If so, and if you'd be willing to share them with me, I'd be extremely grateful.

    There is almost no reliable information on this currently in existence - it's a significant gap in our understanding of the wartime Army. We know little about its social composition, for instance - what were the social/class backgrounds of men in different arms of the service, for instance?

    Thanks in advance for any information,

    Best, Alan
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Service Records list pre war occupations (I think you already know this though). One of my GF's Grandfathers was a Butcher pre war and was employed as a Butchers Cutter during the war. The other was a Plummer but was employed as a Infantryman.
     
  3. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    Service Records list pre war occupations (I think you already know this though). One of my GF's Grandfathers was a Butcher pre war and was employed as a Butchers Cutter during the war. The other was a Plummer but was employed as a Infantryman.

    That's right. But I'm looking for aggregate information if it exists (going through individual service records would be interesting, but very, very time consuming!)

    Best, Alan
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I see what you mean now. I don't think any lists were made, not that I've seen or heard of anyway. I think your best bet would be a 'trade' Regiment/Corps like Royal Engineers. It would make sense for these formations to already be aware of any trades when allocating men their role.

    Perhaps Sapper could shed some light on it for you.

    Andy
     
  5. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    The only place I have seen mention of a Servicemans pre-war employment has been in a Ex P.O.W. Liberation Report.

    There are several thousand in WO 344 so you should find what you need in these Files.
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Not sure if this is of interest but I just came across it in I Corps Ammunition Company War Diary for September (WO 167/136) and it says:

    19 Reservists had reported by 9pm . The following officers also reported:

    2/Lt. Anderson - Runs an electrical buisness - HQ Sect.

    2/Lt Hargroves - An Engineering apprentice - D Sect.

    2/Lt Prestcoe - Clerk with Local Authority, Guildford - B Sect.

    2/Lt Godolphin - Runs a buisness - A Sect.

    2/Lt Pollock - Cost Ac. Clerk, Port of London Authority - C Sect.
     
  7. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

    Pre-war 1926
    But might be of some use
    Rob
    [​IMG]http://geo.yahoo.com/f?s=792600099&t=aa78557c5d101ebc60323535c1a24e9b&r=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F10med%2F4951087812%2Fsizes%2Fz%2Fin%2Fphotostream%2F&fl_ev=0&lang=en&intl=uk
     
  8. Rob Dickers

    Rob Dickers 10th MEDIUM REGT RA

  9. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    Thanks everybody. All very useful/interesting ... keep 'em coming if you see 'em ...

    Best, Alan
     
  10. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Alan,

    On checking my late fathers records there is a sheet titled:-

    Notification of Impending Release

    This sheet shows service number and name but interestingly enough also previous occupation.

    If records are available from Divisions, this could be a potential good source for you.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  11. Sue Light

    Sue Light Member

    Alan
    I noticed yesterday that there was a list of pre-war occupations of RAMC other ranks in the unit war diary of 18 British General Hospital (TNA WO177/1199). Unfortunately I didn't copy it, but just thought I'd flag it up. My eye was caught by how many nursing orderlies had previously been tailors.

    Sue
     
  12. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    My Father was a Royal Engineer trade tested as a Fitter, his mate was a Carpenter (Chippy) these trades actually showed up in their pocket books .
     
  13. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    Alan
    I noticed yesterday that there was a list of pre-war occupations of RAMC other ranks in the unit war diary of 18 British General Hospital (TNA WO177/1199). Unfortunately I didn't copy it, but just thought I'd flag it up. My eye was caught by how many nursing orderlies had previously been tailors.

    Sue

    Thanks Sue. Out of curiosity, can you remember roughly how many personnel were mentioned (tens/hundreds etc.?)

    Best, Alan
     
  14. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    If records are available from Divisions, this could be a potential good source for you.

    Thanks Tom. Yes, records at a unit level (battalion and upwards) would be the Holy Grail of a project like this. It isn't too difficult to find out about the pre-war career of any one particular serviceman, but it's hard to identify trends or draw conclusions without a much larger base of evidence.

    Best, Alan
     
  15. Sue Light

    Sue Light Member

    Thanks Sue. Out of curiosity, can you remember roughly how many personnel were mentioned (tens/hundreds etc.?)

    I would say no more than fifty. The diary is the first for that unit (Feb/March 1940), and I guess that it's possible that all medical units were required to supply this information soon after their mobilisation. If so, then there might be similar lists in the first month or so of a lot of other diaries. I'll get this one out when I'm at TNA again and photograph it.

    Sue
     
  16. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    I would say no more than fifty. The diary is the first for that unit (Feb/March 1940), and I guess that it's possible that all medical units were required to supply this information soon after their mobilisation. If so, then there might be similar lists in the first month or so of a lot of other diaries. I'll get this one out when I'm at TNA again and photograph it.

    Sue

    Thank you Sue.

    I'm currently crunching the numbers from the War Office's massive database of its personnel, collected in summer 1944. Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what the three most common pre-war professions were for ORs (no figures for officers, unfortunately), representing about 320,000 men of the wartime British Army?

    Best, Alan
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Labourer?

    Factory worker?

    Coal miner?

    and my wild card a Clerk?
     
  18. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    Labourer?

    Factory worker?

    Coal miner?

    and my wild card a Clerk?

    'General labourer' is one.

    Fewer factory workers and coal miners than you might think, however - remember that in many cases these men were in Reserved Occupations.

    Clerk *was* a very common trade, though not one of the top 3.

    Best, Alan
     
  19. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    In my father's service records he filled in a form entitled "Industry Group and Occupational Classification Questionnaire under the provisions of A.C.I. 183 of 1941".
    Were they just used for an individual's possible future employment in the Army? Can't see that a central database was set up to record all professions/trades for all servicemen.
     
  20. China Hand

    China Hand No Longer A Forum Member

    Alan, I expect you will have it already, but using the old civil service adage of "never assume" :) do you have this booklet ?

    NS1.jpg

    It was published in I think early 1939, and provides instructions to people on how to apply for the armed services (and other forms of service). It includes this form...

    NS2.jpg

    which is to be returned to either a service address, or to the Ministry of Labour. This, notably, includes a line on "present occupation", and also mentions (bottom right) an "occupational sub-classification no.", which may be part of the same system as Richard Lewis mentions below. This make me wonder if there is any scope in attacking the problem from the Ministry of Labour end (manpower supply) as well as the services end (manpower demand) ?

    If you do not have this booklet, PM me your email address and I can send you a scan.

    Equally, in the HMSO paperback 'Manpower', published in 1944, it says :

    "...posting of men to the services is done at Regional Offices of the Ministry [of Labour], of which there are eleven....from time to time each of the services forwards to the Ministry its demands for men, with detailed information about the numbers of non-tradesmen, and numbers and types
    of tradesmen required..."

    Again, this implies Ministry of Labour files may be a source of information. I can send you a scan of the relevant parts of this booklet, too, if need be.

    Hope helpful ! Apologies if it duplicates what you are already know.
     

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