I am researching the role of the unit orderly in a rifle platoon. My understanding was that they could have performed basic medical duties First Aid etc. I have read some documentary evidence that there were unit orderlies (1 per platoon) doing First Aid type work. I was wondering if they were an RAMC embedded in the unit (my research to date indicates maybe not) and if not what sort of training and equipment would they have carried. Any information that you have I would be grateful of. As a former paramedic this area interests me greatly. Thanks Neil
Now I wonder if the orderly you're referring to here is what was actually the post of a messenger. Each Rifle Pl had an orderly included in its HQ but he wasn't a medical orderly, rather he relayed orders. In the Inf Bn there were 20 stretcher-bearers in Bn HQ who operated under the direction of the Medical Officer and Medical Serjeant. Of these only the MO was RAMC proper, the rest were infantrymen. The only units that had RAMC Orderlies down to Coy/Pl level (or equivalent) were Airborne or Commando related ones. Gary
Hi - Thanks What made me question it was these two articles. BBC - WW2 People's War - Gnr. S. C. January, R.A 1146356 and BBC - WW2 People's War - Medical Orderly I understood that the Stretcher bearers were infantrymen, not RAMC, would they have had any specialist training? I have a copy of the training pamphlet no1 which is regarding SB's but it may be for RAMC personnel only. I would guess that the medical Serjeant would also have some kind of medical training if only FA. Neil
From memory somewhat but I think the MO was responsible for delivering training to the stretcher-bearers, so there could be some variance between units dependent upon what their MO thought was necessary. They were indeed infantrymen, though there was a push from the Canadian Army to make theirs fully fledged members of the RCAMC, though this did not occur. The basic set-up was to get wounded men back to the RAP where the MO was, and from there onto nearest casualty collection post administered the Field Ambulance allotted to each Inf Bde. I think the two examples you've linked two each have a different structure to an Inf Bn, the first being for RA and the second for RE. Each RA Regt had an MO and he was provided with a Orderly, but there was no contingent of SBs as in the Inf. It would be perfectly reasonable practice for units of this type to train up a few volunteers for an orderly type role, and an LAA Regt carried a large number of such MO's orderlies (one per Gun Tp) presumably as recognition they would be spread far and wide. There was no medical orderly on the WE for a RE Field Coy, but in the same way the Inf MO would train SBs he could likewise run a course for Sappers on casualty handling. Gary
In later years certainly ,members of the Band were trained as stretcher bearers and still are. Not sure if this was so WW2 In Barrack life the Platoon orderly was responsible for security of the Barrack room and could change daily/ weekly.
That’s interesting as I was at a concert in a school last year with military band members and the band leader stated categorically that bandsmen were no longer trained as stretcher bearers
Clive. That is correct. The Army withdrew that role from bandsmen because they took Bands away from individual battalions in one of the defence cuts. They then grouped the small number of remaining bands - and there were very few left, around Divisions. As a result, they had more work and no time to devote to playing one minute and learning first aid the next. Grouping a couple of Bands at Divisional level made a mockery of the idea that bandsmen supported Infantry battalions in combat as stretcher bearers - largely because each battalion no longer controlled its own band. It was a farce really but hey ho. Regards Frank
Lance Bombardier Joe 'Doc' Donovan was the medical orderly for D Troop, 318 Battery, 92nd LAA, during the NW Europe campaign. He was greatly admired by his comrades for his unflappability. I don't know if he had any formal medical training, but I suspect not. At the end of the war, the French apparently handed out so many awards per unit to the British - and Joe’s fellow soldiers voted for him to receive the Croix de Guerre with Bronze Star. Joe said he would accept the award on behalf of the whole battery. Joe spent his later life in St Mary Bourne, near Andover, Hampshire. The main picture shows some of the D Troop men in Oploo, Holland, probably in December 1944. Joe is standing by the front wheel of the Jeep and to his right is a young girl. In between them, hanging from the Jeep, is Joe’s medical bag, marked with a red cross and with 'Doc' written on it. Sorry about the poor picture quality.
The order of battle for the Royal Engineer HQ of an Infantry Division with the BEF included the following :- 1 x pioneer as medical officer's orderly. 3 x pioneer as motorcyclist orderly. 1 x pioneer as cook. It is an under-documented aspect - was a 'pioneer' in an RE unit simply an 'other rank' who had not been trained to 'sapper' or were they seconded from the AMPC ?
There were many orderlies in a battalion. Way back in the mists of time they were to be 'orderly men' who would be available at soldiers billets to receive and send messages. They were to remain orderly and sober when on duty. Rifle platoon 1944. Headquarters Second Lieutenant armed with a revolver serjeant with a Sten gun platoon commanders batman with a Wireless set No 38 and a rifle platoon commanders orderly with a rifle. He also had a bicycle. 2” mortar group consisting of lance corporal. Mortar group leader with rifle mortar No1 with 2” mortar mortar No2 with rifle Mortar group leader and No2 carried 12 mortar bombs. No1 carried 6 mortar bombs. 3 X Rifle section The section of ten men was the basic unit of infantry. corporal. Section commander with a Sten gun Rifle group of six men armed with rifles. Bren group of three men lance corporal, Bren group leader with rifle bren No1 with Bren gun bren No2 with rifle In action the platoon orderly might be at company headquarters, ready to take messages to the platoon and return with a reply or acknowledgement. Mike
Little bit out of date on my earlier post but this is what prompted me. 90/91 Operation Gramby. Parachute Regiment Band deployed as Defence Platoon, Medics and Stretcher Bearers to 32 Field Hospital. But understand it is not now a bandsman's role.
Rich, I fear we're getting further and further away from the original query here, however re your query on Pioneers... I won't pretend to be fully versed with RE trades and duties and their qualifications system, however the particular posts you cited are for personnel in Group E. I found an oblique reference to this on the following site - Captain John William Bradford, Royal Engineers The relevant passage is here under 'Recruit Training 1933-1934@; "Sapper Bradford was assigned to "B" Company of the Training Battalion where he would undergo the necessary training to make him into an engineer soldier. He had certain advantages going for him when he reported to the Training Battalion. His apprenticeship prior to enlistment enabled him to immediately pass the Class III trade proficiency test as a Fitter. On the 30th of June 1933 the Commandant of the School of Military Engineering at Chatham was able to issue him a Certificate of Trade Proficiency as a Fitter, Group "A", Class III. It was unfortunate for Bradford that the trade of Fitter at his level of proficiency was temporarily closed to recruiting. He was therefore mustered as a Pioneer (Fitter), Group "E", Class III. This lower proficiency classification meant that he could not be paid as a Group "A" Fitter until a vacancy became available for him, thus he initially received a lower rate of pay". My interpretation would be that in this instance Pioneer refers to personnel regarded as Tradesmen but who are outside of the Trades Groups A-D. They also crop us as filling the posts of Engine Hands and Stokers on the 1938-40 WEs I have but these differentiations disappear with the 1943ish WEs. Gary
