Unit Nominal Rolls

Discussion in 'Unit History' started by SDP, Jan 1, 2015.

  1. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    I'm sometimes asked, including a current query re 3RTR for March 1945, who was serving with a particular Regiment at a particular time. This means delving into the depths of Nominal Rolls. I've only seen a very few of these (actually one in a period of 20 years!) and am wondering if there is a central file at, say, Kew? I have a copy of the 3RTR War Diary for the period but it contains no Nominal Roll, just the occasional mention of officers in the main Diary text and even then it's not in the form of a Roll. Keeping a Roll up to date would have been a significant task but I'm assuming that the Regimental Clerks would have done something in this respect!

    Any guidance would be sincerely appreciated.
     
  2. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi SDP,

    I have been asked the same question over and over again. Some of the Chindit 1 families I have contacted, cannot believe that a full Nominal Roll seems not to exist. I cannot remember ever finding a full personnel listing in any diary or file I have opened at Kew. I'm sure there must be some, but I have only ever discovered casualty rolls and those for the missing in the WO361 series.

    Happy New Year and research good-hunting.

    Steve
     
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  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I've tried to compile a few from CWGC, POW info, Medal recommendations, LG, Regtl Histories, WD info (Field returns, appendices) and the like. I've posted what I've accumulated and others have kindly added details to what I treat as an unofficial nominal / commemorative roll.

    I'd imagine that unit nominal rolls were kept by various units as part of their own archives at some point (Joe Brown describes how these were compiled in the War Diary info thread), but with various regiments being disbanded, amalgamated etc, it'd be difficult to even know where to enquire - should they not have been destroyed in the meantime.

    One armoured unit - I imagine others did the same - compiled a 'pre-embarkation' list in preparation for Normandy, detailing men with their allocated vehicles, and this was found in the War Diary for May '44.

    The closest I've seen to reliable bulk information in official files at Kew relating to 'who served with what unit & when' are Acquittance Rolls filed in amongst some Missing Personnel papers. These were pay rolls, signed by individuals on receipt of monies, on a Company level, so nothing would really be as accurate as regards who was on strength at any given time. Again only part of the jigsaw.
     
  4. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Are the nominal roles not the enlistment and transfer books? The ones in Durham show men who enlisted direct into the regiment,those who transferred in (and out) those GSC allocated to the Regiment , Non Effective Discharges (Death /Wounds/Desertion etc) and those demobbed and these books are up until 1958 .The official descriptin reads;-

    Kyle
     
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  5. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Kyle

    That's a brilliant reply and hopefully a promising lead. Many thanks.

    The 'only' question remaining is where would these books be stored? Kew? Regimental Museum? Bovington in the case of Cavalry and RTR? Sounds like I'm going to be busy for the next few weeks!
     
  6. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Hi ,

    I think theres a detailed thread somewhere about them and what survived.They were all earmarked for destruction but were offered to various Regiments/Associations/Museums but I dont know who took up the offer.Those in Durham have been transferred to micro-fiche :)

    Kyle
     
  7. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Kyle

    I've tried finding the threads you mention in your previous post but have found nothing whilst using a variety of search words except reference to this thread. Any ideas please?
     
  8. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

  9. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    This is an example of Army Book 358 described by Kyle. This is of the Lincolnshire Regiment, the existence of which I discovered from another Forum Member. I was able to view the page upon which my Dad's name was recorded (but not the Battalion) and the entry transferring him to the Royal Artillery. In this case, the Lincolnshire Regt's 358 books are held in the Lincoln City Archives and not a Military Archive.

    Finding a nominal roll in a war diary will be luck. For example, I have copied the war diaries of 1, 2, 4, 6, 7 and 8 Lincolns from WW2 and 6 Lincolns are the only one in which I found a full nominal roll on the outbreak of war and another when they went to North Africa.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Do you have a copy from Bovington? They don't appear to bother with the appendices. Nearly every diary has a nominal roll of officers, submitted weekly and four or five can be found every month in war diaries 99% of the time. Its the other ranks that are harder to find.

    Here's a couple of types from 1 RTRs 1944 war diary
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  11. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Thanks everyone. Excellent help all round.

    My copy of the 3RTR War Diary originated at Kew and contains only sparse information of the type I need. I believe it is a full copy and includes a number of Appendices. I'll now double check to make sure all Appendices are present!

    Ideally I need the following information for 24th Lancers (at least June/July 1944) and 3RTR (for the period August 1944 to August 1945) but I obviously recognise its a long shot:
    Name, address, Service Number.
    Date of Roll.
    Tank census (WD) number and name if it has one.
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I think you'll be very very lucky to get that info. I'm slowly collecting all the Infantry and Armoured war diaries for NWE covering 1944 and 1945. I'll let you know when I've done 3 RTR and tell you how many pages there are for comparison.
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I've just checked the 24 Lancers diary for you and here's the officer field return for July, June is very similar
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  14. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Andy

    I totally agree but it's the old case of 'if you don't ask the question you definitely don't get the answer'!

    Thanks again
    Steve
     
  15. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Andy

    My copy of the 24th Lancers War Diary was copied at Bovington and definitely didn't include those Officers Returns. I guess you took that copy at Kew. Some very familiar names there (reference my profile for the connection).
     
  16. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Forgive me for pointing this out again - initially I was only interested in the post embarkation parts of war diaries, until .... it was pointed out to me by our own Paul Reed that an Armd Bn war diary for May '44 had a pre-embarkation preparation list ..ie how the vehicle parties were to travel across the Channel: Vehicle type, census number, sqn, full proposed crew details with occupation. It's a matter of being lucky and making sure you get lucky. :)

     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The 24 Lancers diary runs from Jan-Aug and contains 120 copied pages or various info ie diary and appendices. All my files are from Kew.
     
  18. Parabat1946

    Parabat1946 Member

    Hi DBF
    Pretty please. How can I get a copy of the armd batt diary for May with all those luscious details in it.
    I grovel as I await your reply.

    Barry
     
  19. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  20. enschede2000

    enschede2000 New Member

    Hi Robert

    I was pleased to see that you found your Father in the nominal roll at Lincolnshire Archives, thought I recognised those books !!
    I last PMd you in 2008 about my Fathers transfer from the 4th Battalion to RA LAA and you were most helpfull. New username but same old guy ... I also see that you have helped a lot of other lost souls. Well done and thanks again........... Robert Kirkham .. Lincoln
     

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