Uniform colours - help wanted please - British infantry - Prize offered

Hi all
I'm planning to get a couple of photos made into colour and want to give the artist as much direction as possible. The photos are, firstly, my Dad as a regimental policeman policing post-war Germany in Hamburg and other cities. At this point he was in the East Lancs regiment. This pic is taken in 1944 at Duisberg, policing a sports meeting. I have his actual cap badge and white belt so I know what those colours are. But I have the following questions:

Q1 What colour would his beret have been? I'm guessing some sort of dark brown - or dark green?. I don''t think it would have been red because I would stress Dad was in the Regimental Police, not the Military police. But isn't it a fine beret?
Q2 I can't quite work out how his badge is sitting on the beret because it looks like there is a square behind it similar to the setting in pic 3, which is actually a NZ cap. What colour would the square have been?
Q3 Would the uniform colour have been something similar to pic 4?
Q4 Would the buttons have been brass or some sort of silver/nickel - well, at least one shiny button. Rest black? - Can't quite work out why they aren't all shiny.




Next:
Group photo of Rufty Hill and Pals taken in Limmasol in 1941 I believe, pic 6
Q5 Trying to determine the shade of Khaki. I am guessing close to the shade of the first shirt in pic 7?
Q6 What colour would their webbing have been. It doesn't look like the traditional webbing and am wondering if it was leather, in which case Dark Brown? If traditional webbing, would it have been blanco'd dark brown?
Q7 Shirt buttons mid brown?
Q8 What the heck is Bill Vickers back left holding? A flute?
Q9 What is Winston wearing round his neck. Every pic I've seen he's wearing a white shirt and bow tie, but seemingly not this one?
Q10 What colour is the blade of grass in the first pic, tenth blade along 6th row from front?

There yer go folks. I know I'm being a bit finnicky with these questions, especially the last one. And if I don't get all the answers it won't be the end of the world. But I know how much time I've already spent trying to get answers via Google and it's hard going. So - I'm offering a signed copy of Dad's memoirs, Fighting Through from Dunkirk to Hamburg (see last pic) published in hardback by Pen and Sword for the best answer received within the next 14 days, say by Sunday 19 March. Happy to take questions if it helps anyone.

But I am assuming boots are black, skin is light brown - it wasn't half hot mum! Thanks in anticipation to everyone who helps. As a consolation to anyone who enters but doesn't win, I'll be sending hardcopy prints out of the two pics once they are colourised.

Email answers to me at paulcheall@yahoo.co.uk please. I'll publicise the winning entry in the forum.

Thanks again, Paul

 

Paul, I can't see that the cap badge in the top photo is East Lancs. My first thought was light infantry of some sort but it could be Green Howards. They had the habit of displaying on a green background. He's not wearing a beret but a GS (General Service) cap. These were made of a different material but more or less the same shade as his battledress. It could well differ slightly.

Buttons were normally plastic on the later war economy battle dress . Has one button simply become polished by the cross strap ?

If the location is Duisburg then it has to be after April 1945. A 1944 date is not possible.

 

As Rich says the uniform is the late war economy battledress with the General Service cap, probably the ugliest British uniform ever (very practical though).

Uniform and cap were the same basic khaki colour. This was a browner shade than your photo 4.
Buttons were black plastic. By enlarging the photo you can see that all the buttons are the same but two have reflected highlights.
Coloured backing for the badge was unofficial but quite common at this time. The East Lancs wore a maroon diamond, the colour being that of one of the regiments original battalions.

Mike

 

As above Paul -
Whilst the shade of different batches of the economy khaki wool did differ in shade, the general colour was brown. Search for images of 1940 Pattern Battledress and General Service Cap. - remember however photography and digitisation can affect the appearance (e.g. it can appear green in phone photos). As has been said, the buttons are an early form of plastic
The colour of the buttons range from chocolate brown to light brown.

The chaps in the lower picture are wearing tasselled aiguilletes in worsted wool cord. These are pre-war band equipment and came in various colours - I assume the East Lancs would have either red (possibly crimson) or green. A rare sight in wartime, I assume this is some kind of informal dance band or some such - they aren't exactly being worn 'by the book'. The centre figure is wearing his webbing belt in a light colour which could be the original light khaki scrubbed and faded or 'blancoed' (a coloured paste preservative) in either light khaki or white.

Btw. The examples you show are US not British however the sand colour in both photo two and three are close to the British Tropical Khaki - search 'Khaki Drill'.

I trust this helps
Keith

 

The dark shade of his Cap GS might possibly indicate a Canadian one, I believe their BD was a darker shade than ours.

What's going on with his right wrist in that photo?

 

Idler,

Unusual but not unique. The right wrist has a duty brassard. Varies from regiment to regiment but may have RP and regimental badge. Only worn when on duty.

In my youth good old fashioned bobbies wore a black and white cuff to show they were on duty. In those days police did not change into uniform at the station so off duty officers were often still in uniform.

Mike

 

Hey Paul,

Your dad did his 'real' (big bollocks) service when he was with the 6th Bn Green Howards. The 50 Div weren't much into 'Bull' (the parade ground, Guards, dressing up, tarty, side of service), in fact they hated it as they were always too busy fighting. I don't believe what your dad wore would necessarily have been conventional; no polished buttons, no blancoed webbing, etc. If up to me (I know it isn't) i'd vote for giving him an immediately post Wadi Akarit attire - that was real soldiering!

Best,

Steve.

 

Hi Rich
Many thanks for your comments which are much appreciated.
Dad was of course in the Green Howards during 39-44 till he was wounded after D-Day. When he returned to join his unit in Germany he found out they had returned to England and Dad ended up in the 1st East Lancs, in the police. So I guess it's possible the badge is GH but its profile looks to me like it could still be EL, especially as he did have an EL badge which I have today.
Green background will do for me. Gotta be different to the cap so if that was brown then it makes green more likley.

Beats me about the buttons but polished by the strap sounds plausible, so I'll go for black for the rest.

Regarding Duisburg, sorry I got dates wrong. This was Dec 45 and Dad was policing a school sports day. Great poignant story to go with the pic which I'll reveal when the finished product goes public.

Thanks again

Paul

 

Hi Mike
Many thanks for your comments which are much appreciated.
Ah. Maroon diamond. Great! Amazed at the knowledge of all you chaps!
Reflection causing the brightness is plausible too.
Noted re shade of brown - browner than pic 4 ...

Thanks again

Paul

 

Hi Keith
Many thanks for this
I've searched as suggested and found what looks exactly like Dad's shirt so that's excellent. Looks like this:


The guys in the group pic, I should have clarified, were seasoned warriors of 6 Green Howards who fought in El Alamein, Wadi Akarit and Sicily and more. Rear left was Bill Vicars and Rear right was Lce Sgt William 'Rufty' Hill who was drowned beneath a landing craft on Gold beach in first wave on D-Day. Both tough lads from the North East. Dad said 'Rufty would have given a very good account of himself had he lived to go into the assault. He was a great scrapper and a good, tough soldier. It was a very sad loss to us all as he had always been a young man so full of energy, well known in the battalion and very popular with everybody; nothing was too much trouble for him - he was ‘one of the lads’


This pic was taken at Limassol in 1941 - it was sent to me by Rufthy's nephew, Mike Smith
and I know from Dad's memoirs pertaining to Jan 43:
"The weather now was very hot. Very quickly, we dumped our kit in a tent allocated
to us and went to another tent where we were issued with khaki drill shirts and
shorts to wear in a place of our denims. If you could have seen those shorts, well,
they were good for a laugh but they were cool in the scorching sun; they had a
double buckle fastening at the waist and wide legs which reached almost to our
knees, they must have been kept in stock since the Indian campaigns!
So I suspect that 'needs must' prevailed and soldiers were issued with whatever was available!

Any idea what colour the aiguilletes would have been for the GH?

I guessed my examples were poor but hoped they would be close enough to illustrate the shade, It's funny but knowing which search terms to use makes a big difference to the Google output.

Thanks again

Paul

 

Thanks to Idler and Mike for picking up on this one.
Paul

 

Ha! Nice one Steve. Yes I think the guys who saw the tougher sides of the war didn't need to polish their egos with dress symbolism. I think reading Dad's memoirs makes me realise blancoing was always a trial and he was glad to see the back of it so I can imagine any way out of it would be taken although I know Dad would not have shirked on the necessities.

I thought readers might like to see a pic of the real belt that Dad was wearing. It's in a box next to where I'm sitting now. A prize for anyone who reckons it would fit around their waist!



The colour has not translated that well. I'd say the real colour is more an off white/cream though I suspect it may have faded with time.

Thanks for the input Steve

Paul

 

Keith I've finally found time to go through all the comments. I need to clarify that the group photo is of 6th Green Howards, not East Lancs. Does this alter your opinion re the colour of their webbing? Thanks so much for your help so far. Paul

 

The webbing is no distinction - especially at that time, in that place. Good luck.

 

Dear all who have contributed. Firstly, my sincere apologies for taking so long to reply on this topic. It's taken me ages to get to grips with all the comments and reach some conclusions, which I've now done. As pennance for taking too long I'm going to offer two of Dad's book instead of the one and I think CoolRedMonger and Trux between them submitted the most comments so if you'd both like to let me have your postal addresses I'll pop a copy of Dad's book in the post to you, with grateful thanks.

I've been going through the photos I had for Allan 'Rufty' Hill and found the biggest clues ever to support CoolRed's comments that their aguillettes were some sort of band regalia because they were indeed - see pics below. Firstly is the pic I was puzzling over as a reminder, then there are two others both of which show the lads wearing the same regalia.

So these lads were 6 Green Howards and one of the pics was taken in Oct 1941 when they would have been in Limassol in Cyprus. So Rufty and Pals must have been in the regimental band - note one pic proves this without much doubt! I'm now wondering whether they would have been red or green for the Green Howards so if anyone has any further thoughts with this new info I'd be grateful.

I'm also wondering if it was customary for the boys to take their instruments with them when posted abroad. Or did the lads just take their aguilettes for a laugh, planning to have a photo taken some time. What a shame that the lads in the photo were all killed (I believe) apart from Bill Vickers top left. Rufty was rear right. The lad in Pic 2 at the front was Bill Elliot. I don't know any of the other names.




Anyway, I've found a colourisation expert to do the work for me so will post the results up asap though I suspect it might be a while! If anyone would like a hardcopy, again let me have your name and address.
Thanks again for all your help folks!
Paul

PS my email is paulcheall@yahoo.co.uk for the addresses

 

Well folks it's been a real marathon getting these photos sorted. I know some purists don't like colourisation and I understand where they are coming from. However, these pics have been colourised as faithfully as possible and I'm chuffed to bits with them so I hope forum members will enjoy them as much as me. I'm working on the script which goes with them and tells the story behind them.



Bill Cheall story:
It’s December 1945. The war in Europe is over and the Allies have occupied Germany. Dad is stationed there in the Regimental Police, policing post-war Duisberg ......

He’s now in the East Lancs infantry regiment. When he left England, he thought he was going to rejoin his beloved Green Howards but didn’t know they’d been withdrawn from battle, so Dad finds himself amongst new friends yet again!

He’s now a policeman in the regimental police, keeping the peace in war torn, defeated Germany. Whilst he was there he was stationed at various places and covered Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Essen and Duisburg amongst other places.

“We did patrols on our motorbikes and to be frank it was becoming
enjoyable. The days had gone when there was any possibility of resentment towards our presence. The population had suffered the first shock of defeat and were now accepting what they could not possibly have foreseen in the heyday of their country.

The companies of the battalion were spread out over a large area and it was my
duty to cover that area, which involved having to cross an excellent pontoon bridge across the River Elbe at Duisburg. It was a marvellous feat of engineering. The engineers were very clever doing the work they did on the Bailey bridges. Duisburg, too, had been a prime target of the air force”.

In the photo, Dad’s standing alone, proud, smart, gazing into the distance. He’s got a Lance Corporal’s stripe on, though he’s about to be promoted to full corporal in charge of the Regimental Police.
He looks in a contemplative mood as he poses for what could be one of his last photos in uniform. He’s reflecting upon his war, the tragedy and violence he’s witnessed, on the horrors he’s seen and hopefully some of the better times.

He’s wearing the badges of the East Lancashire Battalion and 53rd Welsh Infantry Division,
On his right wrist is the brown leather duty brassard which is a sort of strap that signifies he’s on duty to anyone who needs to know. On his head is a huge, almost oversized, beret, or more correctly the General Service Cap.

He’s got the white webbing worn by the policemen and a belt that is now sitting on my desk today as I record this show! I’ve tried it on for size and I’ll tell you this, even though I’m pretty fit for my age, there is no way I can fasten it round my waist – so Dad must have been incredibly fit and trim – mind you he was less than half my present age so we shouldn’t be too surprised.

He’s got white ankle covers on – called puttees. Black army boots. How smart he looks!
Even though he’s in uniform he’s not carrying a gun, certainly not on this day as he’s there to supervise a children’s Christmas party, and this is where it gets better and better …

Over to Dad …

"At the beginning of December 1945, our company commander thought it would be good to give a Christmas party to about one hundred German children of about nine years of age. When the day arrived, they were assembled in the school hall and the police were present to give a hand. The looks on the children’s faces were a just reward for the effort put into the party. They had never seen such a spread in their young lives. Food had been short in Germany for years and it was good to see them all so happy.

At the end, a teacher told them all to stand and thank our officers, then the teacher standing at the front raised her arms for attention, gave some instructions and the children all started to sing their national carol, Silent Night. We were all very touched - it sounded so beautiful. I was so impressed that every year I think of those German school children in that schoolroom near Duisberg.

The memory is so vivid that in December 1986, forty-one years after the occasion, I wrote to the information bureau at Duisberg, telling them of my experience and asked if there was a record available of German children singing Silent Night. and if they would send it to me, letting me know how much money I should send back. They replied, sending the record I had requested, with English and German words on an enclosure. It was a very kind letter, which I have kept. They thanked me for sharing my memories with them and the record was a gift from the German people. I can’t express in words my feelings, sufficient to say that every Christmas I play the record, recalling that lovely day in 1945."

I'll put the Group pic story up asap.
Paul

 

Who were the prizewinners?

 

See my previous post date 1 November for full details. Paul

 

I think the colourisation has been done very well Paul.