6th Guards Tank Brigade/15th Scottish Division - UK Tank losses at Stadensen 14/4/45

Is there any information on tank losses for the action at Stadensen on the night of 14/15th April 1945?
There are claims that up to 30 (yes 30!) Churchills were knocked out. I know it is far-fetched but would like something more solid than 'I don't believe it'!
It seems it was the 4th Coldstreams (6th Gaurds Tank Brigade)that were in the area because they lost at least one officer.

 

I will see if there is anything in the Guards Armoured Division history tomorrow when I am back at my other PC.

 

M Kenny -
I don't know of this battle but if at night as you suggest then I would believe the losses of 30 Churchills as the special 75's and 88mm's were fitted with night sights wheras the Churchills were virtually blind when the sun set -

two squadrons from a whole brigade is only about 15% - that was deemed acceptable...
Cheers

 

The action was a suprise attack by the 'Clausewitz' Division that caught the 15th Scottish Division vehicles lined up in Stadensen. You can read about it in Delaforce's book 'Monty's Northern Legions' (page 200) A Squadron of Churchills from the Coldstreams were said to be there and they were not part of The Gaurds Armoured Division but part of Gaurds 6th Tank Brigade.
It is funny you should mention night sights because my query is linked to the subject. There is a claim that IR Panthers destroyed a 'whole Platoon' of Comet tanks in April and I believe this action forms the basis for the claim. Though many people believe there was widespread use of German IR technology there is not a single example where its use has been proved. The best case scenario is the POSSIBLE use of 4 (that is 2+2 ) Panthers on the whole Western Front in 1945. There is no evidence any IR sights were used other than unsourced claims for the 4 Panthers. There are lots of claims that X number of IR Panthers destroyed 10, 20 or 30 times their own number of Allied tanks in ambushes but it simply not true.
The British were well aware of German IR technology and had their own IR Detectors in store ready for the first use by Germany. If they did use their IR lights they would have been spotted straight away and reduced to scrap. The best anology would be that it would be like going out sniping at night-but using a torch to find your target!
Allied IR Technology was in may areas ahead of Germany and though they tried to mount IR sights on Panthers it simply did not work. Nice idea but impractical given the state of the optics at the time. In the years since WW2 this impractical and combat useless technology has assumed mythical status in the fan-boy world. They drool over these failed machines and fool themselves into believing it was another wunder-weapon that arrived just too late to turn the tide.

A good link for Allied WW2 IR:
http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/Tabby02.pdf

 

Ok, will check the 15 Div history for you then. There is a 6th Guards Bde history, but it is a scarce one, and one I don't have as yet.

 

M Kenny -
I am now aware of the page 200 of Delaforce's " Monty's Northern legions"
there does not appear to be any mention of 30 Churchill's anywhere apart from a squadron of Coldstreams in the area but essentially it is the Scots Infantry battalions which are mostly mentioned - I am sure that you are aware that a squadron of a unit of an Independant Tank Bde had 19 tanks -as opposed to a unit of an Armoured bde.... there is however a mention of "SP's" circling the village - now that is only possible if they could actually see without bumping into the houses.

I only mentioned night sights - NOT an IR system - two different things.

Night sights of binoculars - Commanders cupola glass and Gunners telescopes gave many German Tanks the ability to fight during darkness - believe it - or just Google for "Smokey Smith of the Canadian Seaforths" action at the Savio River - Oct '44 - when he and his section "bumped" into three Panthers - in the dark !

by the way - it was the Scotsman - Logie Baird - the guy who invented your Tv who came up with the first IR system...
Cheers

 

most of the info came from; in issue 53 of the sadly defunct 'Wheels & Tracks' Magazine

The author of the site I linked and the W&T mag article are the same person.

 

Hi,
Here is an account (German)and theoretical explaination of the losses hope it helps;
Leutnant Friederich Anding received a Knights Cross for the destruction of 6 tanks and 5 armored vehicles , as adjutant of the Pz.Jg.Abt. Großdeutschland (commander of the battalion was Maj. Walle) in 1945. This action took place in northern Germany (more specifically in Stadensen) on 14-15 April. The battalion was attacked by a large number of enemy tanks and armored vehicles. Major Walle (9 destroyed tanks), Leutnant Anding and Obergefreiter Stützle (7 destroyed tanks) received KCs for their actions.
Andreas Düfel lived near the town Stadensen, where this action took place and talked to several witnesses and stated this about this particular incident:

The town was almost completely destroyed by the tank battle. It's interesting to note that the town residents doubt whether there were really 18-22 British tanks destroyed. The wrecks were predominantly armoured vehicles (not tanks) and quite a few of them were German. The confusion of War in those last days could quite likely have led to a false evaluation of the actually number of tanks destroyed..

Also an interesting point from Manfred Dörr (the author of the book Die Träger der Nahkampfspange in Gold): (Close Combat Clasp in Gold) is........
You mustn't forget that when two soldiers attack and destroy the same tank, both of them can claim they were the one's who destroyed it. That's why it's theoretically possible that Walle, Anding and Stützle together destroyed 6 tanks and all received 6 stripes ( A Tank destruction badge in Silver) each.



Leutnant Friederich Anding

Regards
Verrieres

 

Verrieres

more than llikely to be nearer the truth as it would appear that a brigade of Scots Infantry were involved - and at night a squadron of supporting Churchills would not be in a village but rather outside waiting for the dawn before they would sally forth owing to their inability to see at night !

Probably what was claimed were Kangaroos like Ron Goldstein's topless tanks for carrying Infantry... and recce armoured cars !

we always thought that a troop of three tanks per infantry company was sufficient therefore a squadron of 19 tanks could handle a brigade of infantry considering that a company was seldom at full strength at that stage of the war.
Cheers

 

The claims about IR Panthers are everywhere and there are many German accounts that mention differing numbers of vehicles and losses. Delaforce gives 63 vehicle losses and says it was mostly cariers.
One sample of the claims:
By the end of the attack the
British force had lost 22 Bren carrier’s,
10 half tracks, 2 AFV’s and 31 other
vehicles It was also reported that 30
Churchill tanks were destroyed or
immobilized during an attack near
Stadensen. German losses were small,
possibly as little as 21 dead and four
AFV destroyed
I am trying to find actual losses because I would like a definitive answer to the various claims. There was at least one Officer from the Coldstreams killed at Stadensen,


John Alexander Somerset,

British Army Officers 1939-1945X -- S

 

Delaforce says a Squadron from the Coldstreams was in Stadensen (page 200) with Glasgow Highlanders, An RASC Troop, a 17pdr Troop, a platoon of Engineers and RHQ 190th Field Regiment RA.

 

well - it has been said often - I am as thick as a few planks - BUT I have read the whole of Chapter 17 starting at page 200 of the Delaforce saga of Monty's Northern Legions and can find NO references to many IR panthers nor 30 knocked out Churchills - as no self respectimg Tank Commander would be in the middle of the village of Nettelkamp at midnight when the first attack was on - then eight days later the second attack went in at 4;am in nearby Stadensen.

Quite frankly this particular chapter is not very well written for such an exhalted author as he makes absolutely no mention of our friend M Kenny's IR Panthers nor his 30 knocked out Churchills !

Cheers

 

The Clausewitz Division is widely stated (in German sources) as having used IR Panthers in April 1945. It is claimed the made the Americans 'flee in panic' on the night of 21/22nd April and on an unspecified date in April 'destroyed a whole Platoon of Comet tanks'. There are a number of books and dozens of sites that parrot these claims as fact when they are nothing of the sort.
My aim, as it always is in these cases, is to check the Allied side of the story.
The claim for US Troops is:
1
One action took place on the 21st of April 1945. The last ten
tanks of "Clausewitz", followed by a Puma 20 mm (Sd.Kfz.
234/1) recce vehicle, approached a US antitank-gun position
(76 mm AT gun M2) at the Weser/Elbe Canal. This first attack
took place at 2 o'clock in the morning. The Americans were
alert and fired illumination rounds. The leading Panther was
then hit and slipped into a ditch, the attack halted. Then the IR
Panthers moved into cover and after a short time located the
guns and fired some twenty rounds. The entire position was
destroyed, the crews and the accompanying infantry company
escaping in somewhat of a panic. The IR Panthers followed
up, destroying some lorries and further support vehicles.
This attack was a success, revealing the enormous possibili-
ties of the IR technology. It is not known, whether the IR
Panthers of "Clausewitz" were used a second time.

Now the US version can be found in this document

After Action April 1945


Extract:
On 21 April, the Division attacked north from a line of departure DAHRE - SALZWEDEL with CCA on the left and CCR on the right. Just prior to the attack, CCA was counter-attacked by elements of Division "Clausewitz". Artillery fire was placed on the attacking forces and they broke and dispersed into the woods to the north.
CCA attacked against a determined enemy who had set up make shift defenses in the woods along the combat command's routes of advance. An increase in the use of anti-tank mines was observed, and fire from nebelwerfers and artillery pieces slowed the advance to some extent. At 2100, the 46th Amrd Inf Bn (married) was assembling for the night in the vicinity of GADDAU. The married "C" companies (46th Armd Inf Bn and 34th Tank Bn) went into position with the CCA CP near KLENZE and the 34th Tank Bn (married) assembled in the vicinity of BERGEN .
CCR was held up in its attack until 1500. The reason for this was that the resistance in front of CCA was such that the two combat commands could not parallel each other's advance, and thus a threat existed to the flank of either, if one was held up and the other moved too rapidly forward. After CCA had cracked the resistance in its sector, CCR attacked with the 47th Armd Inf Bn (married) advancing north on the SALZWEDEL - LUCHOW road and the 10th Tank Bn (married) attacking on the left to clear the pockets in the woods near BOMBECK. The 47th met a good deal of resistance along its route, and mines were found strewn on the road with a minefield near SAASSE. Road blocks defended by AT guns, nebelwerfers, mortars, and infantry, were encountered all along the route and at 2000, heavy fire from LUCHOW, and vicinity, prompted the force to abandon its further advance that night. The battalion went into a security position near SAASSE. In the meantime, the 10th Tank Bn was attacking in the BOMBECK area. The woods in this vicinity had been reported to be a strong-point of enemy armor and infantry. The positions had been sealed off on the north and east by CCA's attack in the early part of the day. The attack was made with one married tank-infantry company moving south from SEEBEN to the railroad and holding there while the balance of the 10th attacked north from the south edge of the woods.
A quantity of enemy personnel was trapped and captured and material loss for the enemy was large. Three (3) tanks were known to have escaped the trap and these moved northwest into the CCA sector. The 10th Tank Bn secured for the night near GR GERSTEDT.
CCB, with the 85th Cav Rcn Sq Mecz attached, continued its clearing at the KLOTZE FORST. Many burned out enemy vehicles were found along with others which apparently had been abandoned. The combat command also maintained its road blocks on the western boundary of the sector in the WITTINGEN - ZASENBECK RADENBECK area, and kept contact with the 29th Inf Div to the north. An advance Division CP was established at SALZWEDEL and Division operations were directed from there.
(NOTE: Div Arty accomplished its usual efficient mission in a supporting role, and the disorganization and dispersal of enemy units attested to the accuracy of the artillery fire.)
Enemy losses were reported as follows:
personnel, PW's six hundred fifty (650), killed, one hundred fifty nine (159),
material captured or destroyed,
fourteen (14) tanks,
four (4) armored cars,
nine (9) half-tracks,
two (2) SP guns (1-75mm, 1-105mm),
two (2) 88mm AT/AA.guns,
four (4) 105mm guns,
two (2) 20mm flak guns,
seventy-two (72) miscellaneous cycles,
one (1) fuel-lubricant dump containing one hundred fifty (150) 50 gal drums of fuel.
. . . .
The US AAR does not bear out the German claims
The British drubbing is given as :
2
Some reports tell of a last action of thus equipped IR Panthers
when they met a British armored division. A British platoon
equipped with Comet tanks was engaged in April 1945 (at
night) by some Solution B IR Panthers. In a short, one-sided
and fierce firelight the entire platoon was annihilated..
. . .

This Comet claim was demolished some 8 years ago


Axis WWII Discussion Group: Exploding Comets, and myths.-
. . .
What I want to do is sort out the German claim that up to 30 Churchills were hit on the night of 14/4/45.
It has become somewhat confused in that assumptions have been made as to where all the claims came from. I am using both German and Allied reports and put them side by side to try and find the truth. This confusion is exactly what I am trying to dispel. By getting the true numbers I can either confirm or refute the German claims.

 

As promised, the material from The History of the The Fifteenth Scottish Division 1939-1945 by Lt-Gen H.H.Martin (Blackwood, London 1948).

 

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