Two Graphic Pictures on Display in Germany

that I hadn't seen before.

On display in the Documentation Centre (A rather excellent WW2 museum) in Obersalzburg, Germany.

 

Andy, These are the sort of photos that sicken me but, in a strange way, inspire me to ensure that the worst events of WW2 should never be forgotten.
The phrase 'lest we forget' applies in so many ways.

Mike

 

That first picture is disgusting.

You would have to be a true monster to agree to work somewhere like that. Orders or not.

 

On my photography course we had to create a presentation on a subject of our choice and I chose Picture Post. I found several photos taken by Bert Hardy. I couldn't believe the mass murder and devastation I saw. Horrific, that one person could do that to another.

 

Of course the Holocaust never happened ......according to some people.

I'll still never understand how they can say that.

Thats the thing, I wasn't sure what to expect and did wonder if I would get a cold response regarding WW2. I have never really been to Germany before and interacted with German people, (Only been as a squaddie and was bused to a base then to a isolated area of Hanover airport) and I wasn't sure what to expect regarding WW2 and the WW2 sites in Germany, especially asking questions.

Apart from a rather stuck up middle aged women who called me a swine I found them to be a rather friendly genuine helpful people. Most didn't have a problem talking about the war, quite a few approached me to ask questions when I was doing 'Then and Nows' which surprised me and I had some good conversations about the war with them. One or two didn't want to help or couldn't help as to where the Berghof was for example and I eventually found it myself. If I'm honest I think the problem regarding WW2 is possibly with the German government rather than the people itself as it the government that seem to want to hide its darker history away from view by destroying most of Obersalzberg, banning Swastikas and making it illegal to own a copy of Mein Kampf etc. The Germans I met accepted WW2 was wrong and to me seemed to feel some amount of responsibility for it which seemed odd to me as those I spoke to were between 20 and 70 years of age.

The impression I got was not what I was expecting and it was a throughly positive one, Germany will be on the holiday agenda again.

 

Owen , do a "Google" on denial and you will find exactly who says what and "why" , total bullshit to be sure but the deluded and self deluded demand the right to go public on their delusions of choice.

 

Of course the Holocaust never happened ......according to some people.

I'll still never understand how they can say that.

because they are total tossers......sorry for swearing guys.... i was not there....i was not even on this planet but to see what those people went through brings a tear to my eye.... WE MUST NEVER FORGET ! and honour those of a generation who sacrificed their lives so we might live peacefully.......litterally hundreds of thousands of innocent lives snuffed out all at the command of a single person....and here we call ourselves civilised. i only wish i could say that the actions of those that served for our freedom was worth it......look where we are now embroilled in more warfare and for what ?

 

The events and actions of (some) people during WWII amazes me still. Especially when considering it was only 65-70 years ago, and there's people of that era and generation still with us today. It still feels close.... a little TOO close. I think that's what sparked my interest in WWII, the more I've learned about the actions of individuals, from innocent civilians caught up in the "machine" of total war, the young men and women who stepped up and fought the good fight willing to pay the ultimate price, to the "monsters" who willingly undertook those horrendous atrocities against their fellow man is somewhat incomprehensible.

We should never shy away from the kind of images that Andy has posted, no matter how sickening or shocking they are to view. For that would be a betrayal of those that suffered and where murdered in the most appalling and unjustified manner. It would also start the process of forgetting the worst of history and those that died.

Some time ago I watched a TV programme about Auschwitz, and Germany's attitude towards those events by modern society. In recent years, Germany's education system has included the Holocaust on it's curriculum, including trips for schoolchildren to what remains of the camp. I suppose that that can only be a good thing. The general consensus of those uneducated on a historic event can cloud and corrupt the event itself. ie: Classing all Germans of the time as Nazis or all the Wehrmacht as SS.

 

Chris don't forget a similiar thing on a smaller scale was happening in on two occassions in Europe in the early and late nineties and Europes first response was the same in the 1930's-Do nothing.

 

Sometimes I get castigated when I am asked; why are you not willing to make your peace with the former enemy ..After all these years.

The picture of the dead bodies supplies the answer, better than any words or description I can dream up.

I Repeat what I said before, I just hope that the Killers that burned the women and children alive in Oradour sur glan church, will have to listen to the screams of the women and little children as they watched in utter agony as their flesh melted off their bodies in the searing flames.

I hope that they will have to listen to their screams for all eternity....That applies to the many thugs in the German forces that raped and murdered and burned as they went. The almost unbelievable crimes they committed in Russia to the innocent peasant folk... Lidice...Belson Tulle, and all the other shocking crimes they did...Never forget what they did...NEVER ! NEVER.....
Sapper.

PS Well done Drew you brought the truth into being with the pictures mate
,

 

here here....mind if i may throw a spanner in the preverbial works, didnt the French, Italians and Russians rape and murder too ? infact i reckon there may have been coalition troops doing the same.....not on a scale like the Germans did but none the less we were not all "whiter than white"...to coin a phrase

 

Richard, this is like the thread on looting that we were discussing a while ago. Surely you can tell the difference between acts of indiscipline and those wilfully permitted, nay, fostered and incentivated by an ideology.

And before people start jumping and shouting "the Russians did so and so" let me recall all the basic argument in the Dresden and Hiroshima threads: sow the wind, reap the whirlwind! The Red Army soldiers knew only too well all that was happening and went finding more and more as they advanced westwards.

 

Za.... buddy i hear you loud and clear as i said nothing the above did could compare to what the germans had done alot of the Russian involvement was as you say reprisals it does not make it right of course.......war makes monsters of men

 

I wouldn't even call it reprisals. Are you aware that circa 3.5 million Red Army POWs died in German captivity? 3.5 million? And not quite of old age nor boredom, mostly from starvation, disease, overwork. Also from late 1944 onwards the RKKA was actually redrafting POWs that were more or less fit and enrolling them. I should say that it would be a bit understandable if these were not very much inclined to forgiveness or politeness towards their former jailors.

 

Can I just reiterate the purpose of posting the pictures was to show that Germany doen't appear to be shying from it's past, nothing more. Whilst the pictures are without doubt truly shocking I found the people I met this month to be very pleasant in the main and there was something about the Germans I met regarding the war which I can't put my finger on -I almost felt it to be apologetic in away and as if they were trying to say sorry to me although I'm not sure why-None I spoke to were anywhere near 70 years old let alone old enough to have taken part in the war itself. I found that rather odd as I don't feel the need to apologise for Slavery, Concentration Camps in South Africa or the action of Lord Jeffrey Amherst in North America and without digging probably quite a few more attrocities.

 

Andy

Time has moved on. They feel apologetic and ashamed of what their country did. And so they should.
While you may have not spoken to anyone over the age of 70, I bet there are still the oldtimers wanting to return back to their glory years of mass murder and the like.
Reminds me of my first trip to Dussldorf in the late '80's. I walked into a general store to buy a coffee and pastry. It was early in the day. The shopkeeper, a man in his late 50's...said 'gutte morgan' ( sorry, my german is poor ). I replied 'good morning' in English and pointed to the brewing coffee pots behind the counter and said in German 'bitte Koffee'. The reply from this old Nazi was 'Nein-Nein-Nein'. I got his message.
And, left the store wondering what he did between 1937 and 1945.

Sapper says it best.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree

 

I agree