Two Allied Officers At the Bunker?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by von Poop, Feb 22, 2016.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    This film,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0hq8xBPrZA

    At c.2:30 shows what appears to be two British Officers being shown the fresh Hitler/Braun cremation site by a Soviet soldier:

    [​IMG]

    (Bloke behind may be an American? or RAF Maybe?)


    Does anyone know who these two chaps might be?




    (Oh, and do watch the film for a quite splendid Hitler impersonation...)
     
    Owen likes this.
  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    No luck on the officer(s) I'm afraid :(

    By the way though, there's a similar, slightly longer, British Pathe film - Berlin Diary (1945):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBp0Xa7_psM

    Ref: The children playing on the "roundabout" at 1.20mins in, and on the climbing frame/grandstand at 3.25min.

    And because a while ago, I read this i.e. That “towards the end of June, Stanley (Christopherson - CO SRY) also visited Berlin with Derrick Warwick and spent a couple of nights with Myles Hildyard, who was now on the staff of the 7th Armoured Division and gave them a tour of the ruins of the German capital. They visited Hitler’s bunker” etc.

    ...in page 511 of the postscript to: An Englishman at War: The Wartime Diaries of Stanley Christopherson DSO MC (James Holland)

    And the SRY wardiary mentions a number of SRY subsequently also making trips and deliveries to Berlin I looked into some links into stories about British officers etc. and troops that were there (June/July 1945) as a result, especially those that had visited the Fuhrerbunker etc. fairly soon after the end of the war and found quite a number of other interesting links and accounts...

    i.e. The 11th Hussars, WD has some info about this time here (i.e. in the month of July) transcribed: http://www.warlinks.com/armour/11_hussars/11huss_45.php

    And there's an interesting bit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Bellamy_(British_Army_officer)#Berlin
    About Bill Bellamy 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars who i.e. "At the first opportunity and before orders were issued prohibiting such activities he and some fellow officers were able to borrow a jeep and explore the administrative heart of the capital. They visited the burnt out shell of the Reichstag first and then went on to the Reich Chancellery which was looted and severely damaged in the fighting but largely intact. In Adolf Hitler's study only his desk remained. They tried to gain access to the gardens at the rear but the Russians had placed a guard on it and forbade them exploring it. They were however, able to grab some souvenirs from the detritus in the building in the form of several small etchings and cards which contained Christmas greetings from the Fuhrer"

    BTW The footage in post #1 seems to relate to this brief(er) AP (???) film maybe:

    http://www.footagefarm.co.uk/Footage%20Farm%20website/Web%20lists/Occupation%20of%20Germany%2046-51.htm

    221029 02:16:44 - 02:18:06 1945 B/W sd
    British and Canadians Enter Berlin
    British and Canadian troops drive along road outside Berlin. Russian zone - Large portrait of Stalin - Russian girl soldier. Sign "British Sector" - flag raising ceremony - military parade before Major General Lines ? (sic - Rm)* commander British Forces in Berlin. German civilians watch.
    02:17:29 Sightseeing - Brandenburg Gate - Reichstag - Chancellery; British troops pick up souvenirs - one holds Iron Cross, others strip chandelier. Berlin women bucket brigade clearing rubble - Buildings in ruins.

    * Major General Lyne See also pic at: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205300
    And collection at: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?f%5B0%5D=agentString%3ALyne%2C%20Lewis%20Owen&query=
    Where there are one or two descriptions of his Berlin souvenirs, as well as some links to other officers with him.

    I picked up quite a number of other links to sites with pictures and info about those few weeks in Berlin after the end of the war but the topic did seem to snowball just a little bit... ;)

    Getty Images - The Last Day's of Hitler: http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/two-russian-soldiers-point-out-what-is-alleged-to-be-news-photo/3320597

    "An edited review of WWII articles providing thought-provoking collection of hand-picked WW2 information." - Links to info about the Furherbunker
    http://hitlernews.cloudworth.com/hitler-bunker-fuhrerbunker.php

    Pictures and description of the Furherbunker etc: http://historyimages.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/hitlers-last-refuge-fuhrerbunker-after.html

    Winston Churchill in Berlin (and similar in associated pics) with lots of other officers and troops: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205196567

    One big question is potentially when the picture of those officers (post #1) was actually taken (tho. it sounds like between 4-6th July perhaps?), and if a better picture of the one above can be got.

    Sorry couldn't help more!

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    von Poop likes this.
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Thanks for having a go, Ramiles,

    I wasn't expecting much of an answer really, assuming it must have been a popular trip for a variety of visiting brass (I'd certainly want to see where the thing definitively ended). More one of those 'put it out there and someone might read something that rings a bell one day' jobbies.

    Cheers again for having a punt.
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The bloke at the back looks like he's got some scrambled egg on his cap and with him being stood behind suggests the guy in front is at least a Brigadier if the bloke behind is a full Colonel.

    Does that make sense?
     
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There is a similar thread here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=198302

    Where someone is attempting / has attempted to identify some of the people in one of the pictures with Churchill there, later in July.

    I think phylo was having a punt at some of the names there. And it seems an interesting thing to pursue...

    And I did half wonder if the Russians had ever attempted to keep a bureaucratic check on the names of those that visited (and maybe even did some accounting re. the "allocation" or "dispersal" of souvenirs), or if the other allies themselves took note much of who went there and how soon they sent the intelligence officers etc. or if those that did go, even if under the guise of a "trip", might have had slightly more "orders" than that :ph34r:

    Just a simple google image search: 4th July 1945 Berlin

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=4th+July+1945+Berlin&biw=1280&bih=685&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5xImuj5HLAhWLChoKHQQCB7AQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=_

    Brought up a colourised Berlin collage of archive material produced by: Kronos Media
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5i9k7s9X_A

    That seems to have a similar (but different) group of three men walking along about 4.30mins in - but it's hard to tell much, as to who even they might have been, as it's really very brief, just a few moments, in about 7mins of film.

    I think this film is quite famous though, as I've probably seen it on TV, and those are probably known I guess?

    Re. Hugh Trevor-Roper:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Trevor-Roper#Investigating_Hitler.27s_last_days

    "In November 1945" ....ordered to investigate..... "...to rebut the Soviet propaganda that Hitler was alive and living in the West"
    "For the most part Trevor-Roper relied on investigations and interviews by hundreds of British, American and Canadian intelligence officers"

    Nov'1945, seems a bit of a wait. Again tho. that "snowball" of info is looming larger I guess... ;)

    Rm.
     
  6. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Looks like the American at 0:20 standing on the corner with the holstered pistol is talking to a couple of USAAF 'tourists'
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    One of these perhaps? ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_generals_and_brigadiers

    Still does narrow it down to a number, and a smaller subset who might have been in Berlin around that time... or had somehow managed to pop by for a trip.

    My first thought from the stance (and nose) of the chap in the picture that it looked "a little" like Horrocks...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Horrocks#/media/File:British_Generals_1939-1945_BU2411.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Horrocks

    But on watching the actual film, the chap there seemed somewhat more stocky than that.

    BTW if this officer was potentially a part of the troops initially sent there, rather than a passing tourist from another unit, it might narrow things down again a bit further. As some of the people in Major General Lyne's entourage seemed a bit similar but none (to me) seemed "quite" an exact match.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Lyne

    "Major General Lyne" in images... : https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Major+General+Lyne&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqoZ3dz5PLAhVIPxoKHeQGBiAQ_AUICCgC&biw=1280&bih=685

    Many of the "apparently close" matches seemed to have mustaches, which the chap in the pic (I think?) seems to lack.
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    And they used the same short clip, of the officer and soviet soldier near to the Jerry cans in the area outside the Fuhrerbunker in the BBC documentary about Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown, which they repeated this evening on BBC2:

    Britain's Greatest Pilot : The Extraordinary Story of Captain 'Winkle' Brown

    Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown recounts his flying experiences, encounters with the Nazis and other adventures leading up to and during the Second World War. Illustrated with archive footage and Captain Brown's own photos.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b045pbq2

    This snippet appears in the documentay at 42.40mins in....

    [​IMG]

    Was sure I had seen it somewhere before :rolleyes: ! :salut:

    Ps. re post #9 just below: There's a thread about Captain "Winkle" Brown here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/55165-eric-winkle-brown-britains-greatest-pilot/
     
  9. The Cooler King

    The Cooler King Elite Member

    Sadly Captain Brown passed away only the other day on the 21st of Feb aged 97.

    A Remarkable man.

    RIP :ukflag[1]:
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Another allied officer that made a bee-line for the Chancellery - and found some souvenir's there:

    Alan Lazarus, (IWM interview)
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018538

    British NCO adviser in Finland, 1940; officer served with 61st Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regt, Royal Artillery in GB, Middle East and North Africa, 1940-1943; served as staff officer in Italy, 1943-1945; served as military governor of Brunswick, Germany, 1945-1946

    REEL 4 Continues: visits to Berlin and Hitler's Chancellery.

    (Nb. Reel 4 of this 4 reel set is quite short - just 4.30mins long)

    Alan Lazarus used to go to Berlin quite a lot (weekends generally with the "drive up" taking about an hour and 50mins).
    He found Berlin extremely interesting, just walking around and was freely allowed into the Chancellery, as there was no one there... one just walked in...
     

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