Turkey shoots down Russian SU-24.

Discussion in 'Postwar' started by gmyles, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    An SU-24 being has been shot down by Turkish F-16s over the Turkish/Syria border.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

    Whist I can think of quite a few occasions of the Russians shooting down NATO planes or airliners mistaken for NATO planes I cannot think of another occasion where a NATO plane has engaged and shot down a Russian military aircraft.

    Can anyone else think of one?

    Gus
     
  2. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    According to the Beeb it was 1950 but no actual details given.
     
  3. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Go Turkey Go!

    Whenever it was it is far too long since. Incursion of air space and coastal waters, crossing of boarders and occupation. I hope Cameron and other leaders are taking note and take this as a way forward. These bullies need to be dealt with and Turkey has shown the way.

    Brian
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Go Turkey go?
    In seeking to force a Nato decision in favour of Erdogan's primary 'anti-Assad anti-Kurd and back anyone who fights those groups' position...
    Hmmm.

    Go Turkey go?
    As Turkomen militias chant Allan's Snackbar while they crow over fallen pilots that they appear to have killed either on the ground, or as they came down...
    Hmmm, again.

    Turkey playing a very dangerous game here, also based quite possibly on their own opinion of what territory and populations they feel rightfully belong to them.
    The Mash, as ever, quite on point:
    Cockroaches following Russian jet story with interest



    We'll see. Won't we. As ever.
    I don't see a single cause for triumphalism over this incident.
    It just gives me the absolute willies.
     
    stolpi and Rich Payne like this.
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Who's Allan and where's his snack bar?
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    We may never know that. A constant puzzle to me.
     
  7. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    Either way you cut it the entire event is a tragedy.

    Turkey's situation is currently rather murky as is.
    1. They have troops in Syria protecting Ataturk's grave.
    2. They are fighting a medium-intensity conflict against the Kurds. (With a large number of civilian casualties from use of arty, while Kurds kill Turkish police with roadside bombs etc). Incidentally the Kurds are one of the few groups who are deliberately armed by the West and by Russia's Egyptian arms supply conduit.
    3. They have repeatedly violated Iraq's territorial sovereignty to pursue the Kurds and attack Iraqi towns.
    4. Clear conduit of arms via Turkey into Syria.
    5. Rather soft attitude to IS in a rather split country.
    6. In order to achieve 1 they have come to some form of informal arrangement with IS.
    7. The whole strong-arming EU over migrants issue.

    Whether a Russian jet strayed into Turkish airspace, their earlier destruction of a Drone was a clear statement of intent. Borders in the area have become porous and as von Poop suggests, rather subjective.

    Downing of the aircraft is one thing, if it was engaged within Syrian airspace then the entire incident is more damning as the Turks effectively condemned the Frogfoot's aircrew to capture/torture or death. As indeed happened with rebels gunning down the two descending aircrew, then seemingly boasting about it [note why did Beeb call them 'fighters' two guys parachuting down after their a/c is destroyed are hardly 'figthers' its one of the most helpless positions you can be in]. The attack on a Hind on SAR duties will no doubt infuriate Moscow further - especially from seemingly a Western backed rebel group.

    Putin's rhetoric has been exceptionally strong stating flat out that Turkey have 'stabbed [Russia] in the back' and are 'accomplices of terrorists'. Such language is exactly what one would associate with our posturing towards Rogue States. Shutting down tourist trips to Turkey on safety grounds

    I think its safe to say Turkey will face a cold system if Russia chooses to shut off the taps, and also the Kurds will get a few thousand tons of shiny Christmas presents from Mr Putin.
     
  8. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Allan's snackbar is where the seventy virgins hang out. Joking aside. it gives me the willies as well; if Putin decides to have a go at Turkey, we, as fellow NATO members, will have to respond and that is how World Wars start.
     
  9. steelers708

    steelers708 Junior Member

    I'm with Brian on this one, Putin has had his way for far too long( Crimea, Malayan airliner, Ukraine) he obviously doesn't like it when the boots on the other foot but he's finding out what it's like at least.
     
  10. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    I wouldn't want to play brinkmanship with the Russians, personally. What are we supposed to do - launch our aircraft carriers and hope Ivan dies laughing?
     
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  11. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Turks say the 2 pilots are alive according to the bbc
     
  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    from the Telegraph


    Until Turkey shot down a Russian warplane over its border with Syria on Tuesday, Vladimir Putin seemed to have convinced himself that Nato countries were just not serious about confronting Russia’s increasingly belligerent military conduct.


    The Russian president recently made this view known when close aides warned him of Britain’s views on Russia. They told him that, when Britain outlined its National Security Strategy as part of the 2015 defence review, it would argue that, after Islamic State (Isil), Russia posed the greatest threat to global peace. But rather than being alarmed that his country was being cast in the same mould as the barbaric followers of Isil, Mr Putin simply shrugged. “Don’t worry,” he reassured his aides. “The British aren’t serious.”






    And, given the impotent response by Britain and its Nato allies to Moscow’s various acts of aggression over the past decade, who could blame the Russian leader for his nonchalance? Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine, the Baltics, Syria: the roll call of Mr Putin’s unwelcome meddling in the affairs of other nations does not make happy reading for Western leaders. And yet, until yesterday, Nato had done precious little to persuade Mr Putin to rethink his cavalier attitude towards other nations’ borders.


    Nato turned a blind eye when, in retaliation for Georgia’s attempts to join the Nato alliance in 2008, Moscow helped itself to the former Georgian territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Last year’s illegal annexation of Crimea is now a fait accompli so far as Russia is concerned, while Nato’s response to the Kremlin’s continued sabre rattling in eastern Ukraine and the Baltics has been to conduct a few war games and bolster its air patrols.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/12013896/The-Russians-had-it-coming-to-them.html
     
  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Telegraph

    18:14 Russia: one pilot 'died on descent', another killed in rescue mission

    The Russian ministry of defence has confirmed that one of the two pilots of the jet shot down by Turkey was killed. It also says another Russian was killed during a rescue mission, when a helicopter was struck.

    That appears to be the helicopter targeted by Syrian rebels, supporting reports that the helicopter was trying to access the site where a pilot had landed when it came under fire.

    Russian MoD says one pilot died "on descent" and one marine died on the rescue operation when a helicopter was hit.
    — Roland Oliphant November 24, 2015

    Re the helicopter


    12:47

    Russian helicopter destroyed?

    In what appears to be a separate incident, another Syrian rebel group - the Free Syrian Army’s First Coastal Division - says it has hit a Russia helicopter on Turkmen Mountain, using a TOW anti-tank missile, writes Louisa Loveluck, Middle East reporter.
    Pro-regime media outlets appear to have confirmed the report, suggesting that a Russian helicopter has been forced to make an emergency landing in government-controlled Latakia.
    It was previously reported that Russian helicopters were trying to access the location where the first fighter bomber had crashed.
    If the strike is confirmed, the TOW missile was most likely supplied through the same US and Turkey-backed logistics programme that has reportedly been supplying Alwiya al-Ashar.
    The rebels' usage of these American-made TOW missiles has increased over 800 per cent since Russia began air strikes against them at the end of September, slowing regime offensives across the country by destroying dozens of tanks and other armoured vehicles.
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

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  15. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    A few years old




    Why Is Turkey In NATO?






    • NATO was first formed in April 1949 with twelve original members, two North American nations and twelve European states located either in Northern or Western Europe. Turkey entered with the first enlargement in 1952 - before even Germany. REUTERS




    Following one, maybe two, apparently unprovoked attacks on Turkish jets by Syrian military forces, the Ankara government has called an emergency meeting of NATO in Brussels to discuss how to respond to these provocations.
    Under Article 5 of NATO’s charter, an attack on one member of the alliance could be construed as an attack on the whole group, leading to possible joint retaliation against the offending party (in this case, Syria).
    However, one may wonder why Turkey -- a country that is about 2,000 miles to the east of the Atlantic Ocean -- finds itself in an entity called the “North Atlantic Treaty Organization.”
    Actually, Turkey and its neighbor Greece (another nation remote from the shores of the Atlantic) joined NATO in February 1952, marking the first time the alliance made any kind of enlargement.
    NATO was first formed in April 1949 with 12 original members (two North American nations and 10 states in Northern or Western Europe).
    The decision to allow Greece and Turkey into alliance stemmed largely from Cold War strategies against the Soviet Union. Greece and Turkey (both with firmly anti-Communist governments) were viewed by the West as bulwarks against Moscow and the spread of communism in Europe. Considering that the Korean War was on the horizon, fears of China and Russia expanding their influence into other parts of the world were realized. (Both Greece and Turkey contributed troops to fight in Korea).
    “The main purpose for establishing NATO was to counter the threat of USSR / Communist expansion after World War II,” said Dr. Dilshod Achilov of the Department of Political Science, International Affairs And Public Administration East Tennessee State University. “The roots of accepting non-North Atlantic nations into NATO, mainly Greece and Turkey to begin with, lies at the heart of the Truman Doctrine -- extending military and economic aid to states vulnerable to Soviet threat / expansion.”
    Turkey has maintained its membership in the alliance ever since.
    Indeed, Turkey's strategic location boosted NATO's leverage against the Soviet Union after the Second World War.
    “NATO membership would guarantee, in essence, that Turkey would not become a Soviet ally,” Achilov noted.
    In a statement commemorating Greece and Turkey’s 60th anniversary of joining NATO, the alliance stated: “Turkey and Greece have greatly contributed to Alliance security during six decades, guarding NATO’s southern flank during the Cold War and, today, addressing new challenges such as violent extremism, or contributing to missile defense and stabilizing Afghanistan.”
    Ambassador Haydar Berk, the permanent representative of Turkey to the North Atlantic Council, expressed his country’s commitment to the alliance.
    NATO is one of the essential dimensions of Turkish foreign and defense policy,” he said.
    “Turkey has been an important member of the Alliance and a reliable ally for 60 years.
    Indeed, Greece and Turkey’s accession to NATO predated West Germany’s joining by three years. In 1955, West Germany (only 10 years after the fall of the Nazi regime) became a member of NATO, a development that led Moscow to retaliate by forming the Warsaw Pact (the Communist answer to NATO).
    However, given the contentious ties between ancient rivals Greece and Turkey, the Greeks bolted from NATO in 1974 following the Turkish invasion of the island of Cyprus, where the Turks formed a separate state called the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (an entity recognized by no one but Ankara).
    Greece rejoined NATO in 1980 (with Turkey’s cooperation).
    After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet empire, the “North Atlantic” nature of NATO was further diluted by the mass entry of many of the former Warsaw Pact nations into the alliance (excluding Russia, of course) in 1999 and 2004.
    Jamie Chandler, a political scientist at Hunter College in New York City, also said that Turkey’s membership was pivotal in terms helping NATO deal with political instability in Eastern Europe, the 1990s Balkan wars, and post-9/11 activities focused on the Middle East.
    “Turkey’s secular-Islamic government provides NATO [with] a cultural and political bridge into the Arab world, and NATO installations in the country give the organization an efficient means to deal with instability in the region,” he added.




    http://www.ibtimes.com/why-turkey-nato-704333
     
  16. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Have to say from a photo doing the rounds of some 'moderate western-backed militiamen' standing over and on at least one prone airman like a hunting trophy, the chap doesn't look very alive...

    Seems a tad foolish to put your grinning mug in such a picture. Large Russki specialists memorising your face might be worth considering.
     
  17. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    When I first heard about this incident, I uttered the phrase: "Oh dear, this could get messy."

    Russia are a bit of a nightmare to deal with right now (probably most of the time), you think you have found common ground to work with them over, like Syria/Isis, then something else comes up to muddy the waters; Olympic athletes and doping, the corruption over their World Cup bid and obviously their involvement in Ukraine.
     
  18. Nijmegen

    Nijmegen Member

    Mr. Erdoğan is aiming to be like Mr. Putin.

    The explosion killing many in Ankara was not claimed by IS, which is rather odd.

    He will do anything to achieve what he wants. He gives me the willies.
     
  19. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Junior Member

    Much here about Turkey but the point is if you invade airspace of another Nation without invitation, are given fair warning and then shot down you have no grounds for complaint. We are not talking here of an incident such as when the Malayan Airliner was destroyed. Russia has been given too much freedom to do as it pleases in the past and now finally someone has the guts to stand up and be counted.

    NATO needs to unit here and say it will support any of its members taking the same action in such circumstances.

    Brian
     
  20. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I see those 'moderate western backed militiamen' crowing over the corpse are also affiliated with the al Nusra front and local al Qaeda.

    "We are Syrian mujahideen, back from various jihad fronts to restore God's rule on the Earth and avenge the Syrians' violated honour and spilled blood,"
    Etc.

    Good job they're 'moderate western backed militiamen' too, otherwise I might be slightly concerned at their supply of tow missiles etc. from the US.
    I mean, 'moderate western backed militiamen' would never specialise in getting the new Caliphate's oil through to their mates in Turkey via a shady border route, would they? Providing a not-inconsiderable daily wedge to the black-flaggers.
    That'd be seriously dubious. Especially if said mates chose to down another state's plane to make some sort of incredibly dangerous statement.

    Turkey could have shown restraint on such a dangerous event for all NATO members. I believe there was even due to be some sort of Ertogan/Putin meeting due soon.
    It chose not to. That in itself is... interesting. Anyone might think they were unhappy at the increasing diplomatic contact between the Russkis and 'The West'.
    (That War Nerd article really is quite interesting on Turkey's feelings re certain border areas.)


    This Middle Eastern mess* isn't any sort of easily polarised 'good guys vs bad guys' situation, right up to nation states' involvements is it. Or something purely to do with air spaces and such niceties. Far greater complexity than that, with some potentially very dangerous outcomes. Some of which are of benefit to the more clearly identifiable enemies of... well... everything that isn't them.

    I wonder if some sensible Kurds are currently working to set up a Kurdistan embassy in Moscow. Can't help feeling a few doors might have opened there in the last 24 hours.


    *like Eaton mess, but with less strawberries and more semtex.
     

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