Can anyone offer any advice :- I have a copy of my late fathers service record (please see scn attach). I have always wondered which port in Italy he would have disembarked on ? Frank de Planta discounted Salerno & thought either Taranto or Naples ..but i would like find out the exact location. Has anyone ever done any research on troop ships from North Africa at the time to Italy ? On the diary there is only a some "Army terms " that i think possibly might guide me ...in the centre column towards the bottom dated 14th January 1944 ..does this mean anything ? Any tips or advice on where to proceed with this would be much appreciated. Kind Regards Derrick
Hi Derrick, What unit was he with? Is it just 364 Works Section? Quite often the ship will be mentioned in the WD. I can have a look for you next time I'm in Kew - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C960985 or do you already have full copies? From my (albeit limited) research most troops coming from Egypt or Libya tend to come into Taranto - with less into Bari. They also seem to leave Italy for NA through Taranto as well. Regards, Gary.
Hi Gary, Thanks for the heads up. Dad was in the RE, but i'm trying to piece together the hierarchy of who the 364 Works Section worked under ?.As it appeared to be a small section (15 men)...i'm interested who they would have been attached to ..right up the bigger picture Eighth Army.. 5th Army. I think that would help find the troopship and his sections movements... I ve got some copies of Dads section WD but it doesn't mention where there camein? I'll post some more entries later. Regards Derrick
Derrick 14th Jan 1944 TOS (Taken off strength) X4 list THE X (iv) LIST comprises all unposted reinforcements and incoming reinforcement drafts. Personnel discharged from (x(ii)) to Training Depots, fit for duty, are transferred to the X (iv) list of their corps, until posted to a unit, when they are struck off X (iv) and taken on unit strength. Reinforcements in transit between the Base and a unit remain on X (iv) (and the Base Depot strength) until they actually reach and are taken on the strength by the unit to which they are proceeding. Escaped PoWs [Prisoners of War] who until such escape have been on the X (iii) list are transferred to X (iv) list on reaching their respective training depots. Basically he was taken from the unit he was with and placed in a general reserve 'pot' and could then be called uopn to go to anywhere they required him to go Not sure what " 1 GRTD On 19 Mar 1944 - Posted in from X 4 List to R2TP [whatever that means] NA [North Africa] but you can see this is his posting to 364 Works section 29 Apr 1944 - he forfaits 3 days pay for something he did earlier that month against Standing Orders TD
Hi Tricky, Many thanks for the deciphering,much appreciated.. they all mean something but it’s all a bit of a challenge & a mystery to me. What I’m hoping to produce is a “translated” version of Dads Service and Casualty form .. I realise that’s a going to be a project that may take a while. On the troopship question I’ve been through the RE war diary for when dad joined them.. but there is no mention of the section coming in at the same date. So I’m assuming the section was already in Italy, dad then landed in Italy in 19th March 44. .. got sent to where they were and started fixing things. Is there a record somewhere of which troopships arrived in say Naples or Taranto & which regiment of men etc where actually on it ? I think it’s worth pursuing the deciphering of X4 List R2TP ? Beginning to ramble a bit now ! Thanks Derrick
I have from time to time tried to find passenger lists for ships during WW2, they have been very very difficult to find for commercial ships or even repatriation ships - so for troopships .................. I have never seen one. There is often a random code provided to all passengers and equipment travelling on a specific ship, similar in a way to an airline boarding card, but thats about as good as it gets. The recording of troopships movements and their exact cargoes has been, for me at least, difficult to research. Looking at Arnold Haques databases it shows that no ships arrived at Taranto on that date, but a convoy arrived in Naples on the 19th March 1944 Arnold Hague Ports database - and it was Convoy VN 28 The list provides no real details that would help your search TD Arnold Hague convoy database - VN convoys
Hi Tricky, Thank you for the link and your experience on this search. I had a feeling it was a bit of a challenge ! I will check out the database you sent and try to pull together some info from the WD and other sources RE book etc ..too see if I can pin point the port .. ( Naples appears to be he most likely ) . I can certainly appreciate the fact that writing records of troop movements were not a priority at that time !. More research required . Regards Derrick
Dad was in Alexandria for Christmas 43 ... But the pages I have from WD I(photographed at Kew.. ) with not a great camera aren't good to scan .. Some are easy to read .. Not all & Its not the complete diary .. I have looked a getting the complete WD from Kew ... (,£)! .. as it's quite a few pages / pictures & drawings of bridges etc. I d love to get it one day . Thanks for the offer to take a look at it when you next at Kew ? Regards Derrick
Not only was it not a priority at the time it could well be a matter of security. The trouble is that if it was purely a troopship then there may a list of persons and equipment somewhere in the Regiments files, in case of accident or submarine attack, there certainly would not be a passenger list as one would expect. Ancestry files for passenger lists basically stops in 1939 and restarts in 1945, but they are obviously commercial. The only way really is go through what you can find and see if there is a date of departure or arrival, a port or a ship name, but I suspect at the end of the day thats about all the information you will be able to find. Thats all part of the fun of research isnt it - if it was there in front of you whats the point TD
There are 2 members here who do the TNA Kew thingy http://ww2talk.com/index.php?members/drew5233.6786/ http://ww2talk.com/index.php?members/psywar-org.2876/ They are a lot cheaper than TNA and also you can probably ask them to photo certain months or weeks of a WD instaed of the whole thing - if you want of course TD
Hi Derrick, If you can wait a few weeks I’ll copy them for you. Don’t worry, I don’t charge. I’m sure the unit would have been part of a larger organisation, not sure if anyone else here has a detailed order of battle for RE units. Regards, Gary.
TD I Think TOS is Taken On Strength and SOS is Struck Off Strength. Have I missed something as I am a bit confused as to where the reference to Italy is as I can't see it in the two documents posted. As far as I can see: 12/12/43 Embarked UK (Liverpool) 25/12/43 Disembarked NA (North Africa) 25/12/43 TOS X(4) list 1/3/44 Posted to 364 Works section (NA) Anyway as far as movement to North Africa is concerned the following is the route taken by 56 Recce when 78th Division went for R&R. (Example only, may be totally inappropriate for the unit in question). 14 July 44 - Entrain at Palestrina Station (Rome) prior to embarkation for Middle East 16 July - Arrive Div Conc area transit camp, Taranto 17 July - Rgt marched to docks at Taranto and embarked on troopship 'Empire Pride' 22 July - Troopship docks Alexandria 23 July - Qassasin Camp No 24 6 Sept - Proceeds to Qassasin Station to entrain for Port Said, embark on 'MV Capetown Castle' 10 Sept - Ship sails 15 Sept - Arrive Taranto, disembark and proceeds to Div conc area Tuker Camp 26 Sept - Proceed to Fano via San Severo and Guilianova As I say may be irrelevant.
Quote from 'Blue Italian Skies Above' unpublished by by Frank Snape ( written 1990 and now in the Beds & Herts. Museum) 'It was February 1944....The troopship 'Latticia' steamed slowly into..the Bay of Naples' I'm not at all sure about the spelling of 'Latticia' - perhaps it should be Letitia. Anyway, aboard were 2 Battalion Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment. Vitellino
Great advice as always guys . Gary, Thank you for the offer to copy the WD ( it’s a lot of pages! ) pm me and we have a chat about it. I bought a RE from the museum at Chatham. No battle order in it but lots of information to wade through.. it’s what we do . Tricky, I’ll contact those guys, thank you .. lots to get in with. I’m on shift now so speak soon guys Vittelino & Tony56 thanks will reply later
Gents, Tony wrote :- Have I missed something as I am a bit confused as to where the reference to Italy is as I can't see it in the two documents posted. As far as I can see: 12/12/43 Embarked UK (Liverpool) 25/12/43 Disembarked NA (North Africa) 25/12/43 TOS X(4) list 1/3/44 Posted to 364 Works section (NA) Hi Tony, Dad was definitely in Italy....it only says "field" in his Service record but i have some War Diary copies, for 1944 /5 and they are all from Italy. thank you for the info, still going through it. Following on from the post :- Please see snip attachment below... Does anyone have any idea what WR7 means on the entry for the 1st March 1944 means ? Its after dad was posted into 364 Works Section ...which on that entry has (NA) at the end of the text,so am i right in thinking he did join the Section in North Africa & then was transported with them to Italy .....or does that just refer to his location with the abbreviation R.2.T.P just before (NA) ? There is no date on that entry but it was around early new year 44 . More deciphering required Any thoughts Derrick
Not disputing he was in Italy at some time just querying when. I think the important column as far as dates are concerned is 'F'. To me this indicates that he disembarked North Africa on 25/12/43 and was TOS X(4) the same date. The reference to 'Field' is the term used to denote he had landed in an operational area. I think the abbreviation on 1/3/44 may be RETD, what about Royal Engineers Transport Department / Division. His loss of 3 days pay 'failing to observe Unit MT (Motor Transport?) Standing Order. Bear in mind he was a driver. Likewise 1 GATD, something Transport Department / Division or is it GRTD? Do we have a name and service number, may find him elsewhere?
See this has been posted before: Newbie saying hi. - RE Italy Enquiry - 364 Works Section (formerly 105 DCRE Works). and here Royal Engineers Italy 1944-45 Have seen an abbreviation RETP - Reserve Entry Training Plan
Hi, My two penneth on the queried WR7 is that it is actually WEF - with effect from. It relates to a Part 2 Order entry dated 19th March 1944 but is to be read in conjunction with the date alongside it ie it is regarding his posting with effect from 1st March 1944. Steve I definitely know what CR7 is but you don’t see that on any service records - rather more likely on football boots and other football kit
