Translation of WWII Service Records; DLI & other units

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Pte Morrison, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. Pte Morrison

    Pte Morrison Member

    Please can I get some help understanding and translating my Grandad's WWII Service Records as attached. I am trying to write an account that my Mum can understand.

    His army number was 4459046 and from what I understand he enlisted with DLI and was initially posted to ITC, then 50th Battalion (was this DLI?), then 14th DLI (Duddingston in Scotland?), then embarked from UK to IA or SA or LA?, then 1/2 TD (Egypt) what was this unit? Para Training?, then 156 Para Bn (Egypt), then 1 Para Bn and finally GP Depot (Larkhill) as Tnr? Is this a trainer and if so what in?

    I would appreciate any help with this no matter how small to help piece everything together.

    Many thanks
    Ian
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Thanks for sharing your grandfathers papers. Do you know if he applied for his campaign medals as I can't see a Medal Office stamp on the papers you've posted.

    Your grandfather left UK en route to Egypt in January 1943 travelling by sea via The Cape of Good Hope route. His record shows his convoy had a 24 hour stop at a port in South Africa 13/14 March 1943 before continuing the journey to Egypt where he arrived 13th April 1943 and was posted to Number 1 Infantry Training Depot for further training - likely pending deployment as a reinforcement.

    I would hazard a guess that he likely didn't want to kick his heels in a Training Depot so volunteered for a transfer to 156 Parachute Regiment and moved 29th April 1943 and likely took a Parachute Course which is reflected in a Feb 1944 entry on his second B103 regarding arrears of pay due from 18th May 1943 - probably Airborne pay. There will be a wealth of information about his Airborne battalion activities on Paradata website.

    I would suggest that his Aug 1945 posting to the Glider Pilot Regiment Depot was in the rank of Trooper - not trainer - and was a holding position pending his discharge in November 1945 as 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment were posted to Palestine post war.

    Regards

    Steve Y


    PS

    The various mentions of X lists on his B103's is Army shorthand.

    X lists (Service Records)
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  3. Pte Morrison

    Pte Morrison Member

    Hello Steve,

    Thanks you so much for the translation of my Grandfather's Service records into layman terms, this really helps piece everything together. That seems one hell of a boat journey to Egypt, almost 3 months at sea and via South Africa, is there anyway I can find out which ship he was on? You may also notice that he resorted back from being a Corporal to a Private at his own request, I have heard of this happening before, do you know if this was a common thing during the war? I have also managed to obtain a good bit of information from other members regarding his time with the 156 Para Bn and interestingly he went with a Seabourne tail in Aug 1944 to France and onwards to Nijmegen in Sept 1944 with HQ Company.

    Regarding his medals, I have attached the section from the Statement of Service form that lists his medals, apparently my Auntie has the medals somewhere in her loft, so I will try and get them looked out as I would like to see them.

    Many thanks again for your time and help.

    Regards
    Ian
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    I'm pleased to see that he obtained his campaign medals. Surprised to see he was awarded an Africa Star and Ist Army clasp as he only arrived in Egypt mid April 1943 and served at an ITD and a fortnight attached 156 Para Btn - likely on a Parachute Course - before the cut off date of 12th May 1943. 1st Army were in Tunisia and I can't see 156 Parachute Btn on 1st Army Order of Battle during the Tunisia Campaign. Hopefully more knowledgeable members will chip in.

    Forum member Ron Goldstein will be interested in the award of the 1st Army Clasp as he arrived in Tunisia about the same time but was not posted to an operational unit until after the cut off date and MOD disallowed his 1st Army Clasp application in recent years!

    http://ww2talk.com/index.php?posts/608766/

    In relation to his voyage to Egypt I would start a separate topic. I've looked on the below site but the dates of the early 1943 convoys don't fit his dates. I was surprised at the 24 hour recorded stopover in South Africa as it was usually a period of anything up to a week. I wouldn't take it as read that the dates of embarkation/disembarkation are completely accurate. His start date will be the date he left 14 DLI to a U.K. holding/transit camp en route to the port of embarkation. Departure date could be 5 or 7 days later.

    WS (Winston Specials) Convoys in WW2 - 1943 Sailings

    It was not unusual for a Lance Corporal to revert to Private at his own request as wartime military supervisory roles didn't suit everyone - often the same in modern day civilian working life!

    Regards

    Steve Y

    PS

    I would also start a new topic about your grandfathers Parachute Course - some members have access to the course attendance records.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
    Tricky Dicky and Pte Morrison like this.
  5. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Hi Ian,

    It's interesting that your Grandfather though associated with the 156 Para Battalion since 29/4/43 is not officially AAC until posted to them on 24/2/44. You should contact ParaData to see if he is listed on one the Ringway jump courses. A small donation might be required. I'm not sure if they have the jump course logs for Kabrit/Ramat David at ParaData. I have seen captures from the book but could never determine their source. Perhaps Steve (Sussex by the Sea) knows?

    The War Diaries for the 156th Parachute Battalion (42-44) are available for purchase at the Pegasus Archive:

    The Pegasus Archive War Diary Collection

    For clarification of X Lists there is a thread here devoted to the subject. I'll attach a PDF on X Lists created by Nick Collins.

    Regards ...

    Edit: Removed comments on Italy after noticing belatedly he received the Italy Star above.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
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  6. Pte Morrison

    Pte Morrison Member

    Hi Steve,

    In late response to your previous message last year and after a bit more research and zooming in my Grandad's picture (which is in fact my profile picture), I can see that he is wearing what looks like the Africa Star ribbon Bar with an "8" on it as per attached picture. Therefore I can only assume that he was awarded the "8th Army Clasp" and not the 1st as it states in his service records. Were the 156 Parachute Btn part of an Order of Battle for the 8th Army or would he have serviced with a different unit during this time.

    Thanks for your help

    Ian

    IMG_4469.PNG
     
  7. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Good spot on the picture. Well Done!

    As I said in my 1st Sept 2017 post he appears to have gone direct from his troop ship to a Training Depot (not unusual - for acclimatisation and further training in theatre) and then onto 156 Para - no mention of active service in 8th Army.

    Members can only interpret the information recorded in the records and if there are clerical mistakes we struggle 75 years later.

    You might want to contact DLI Museum for further clarification or look at Paradata site for more information on 156 Parachute Regiment movements.

    Good Luck

    Steve

    Durham Light Infantry (DLI) regiment collection - Durham County Council
     
  8. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Ian,

    Your grandfather’s army service number is from the Durham Light Infantry block of numbers, so he did enlist in the DLI. After his basic training, he was posted to the 50th (Holding) Bn Durham Light Infantry, which was quite normal. He then would undertake further training to asimulate him into the DLI before his posting to the 14th Bn Durham Light Infantry.

    The 14th Bn DLI only served in the UK, moving later to providing replacements for DLI battalions active overseas and eventually being disbanded in the autumn of 1943.

    Your grandfather embarked for overseas duty in January 1943, arriving in Egypt on 13 April 1943. He was sent by the DLI on the expectation of being a DLI replacement (and this was an unwritten but mainly observed policy in the 8th Army) and the only DLI units in 8th Army at this time were the 6th, 8th & 9th Bns Durham Light Infantry, 151st Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division, who were just south of Enfidaville, Tunisia, on 17 April 1943.

    I do not agree with Steve Y’s comment about him transferring to the Parachute Regiment on 29 April 1943 as “he likely didn't want to kick his heels in a Training Depot”. The 50 Div were the most experienced and battle hardened Infantry Division in the British Army, were currently in contact with the enemy in Tunisia and were disengaged on 21 April 1943 in order to travel back to the Nile Delta for preparation as an assault Division in Operation Husky (the invasion of Sicily) on 10 July 1943. The 151st Infantry Brigade were the first wave in that assault. After Sicily, 50 Div returned back to the UK, arriving on 5 November 1943 in preparation as an assault Division on Gold Beach on D-Day and the fighting through NW Europe, including Operation Market Garden; which appears to be where your grandfather was involved in his first action.

    My point is that your grandfather would have seen more fighting if he had stayed in the Durham Light Infantry, in the 151st Infantry Brigade, than he did kicking his heels in the Paras.

    Although it appears from his service record that your grandfather’s first action was during Market Garden, I am not convinced. Although his service record does not show service in CMF = Italy in this instance, his medal card shows he was awarded the Italy Star. The 156th Parachute Battalion fought briefly in Italy in September 1943 before returning to the UK in November 1943 (which is when your grandfather returned to the UK). I am wondering if there is a chunk of his service missing from his record covering this period?!?

    Anyway, I hope this is helpful to your search. I should be able to assist with matters Durham Light Infantry, if you have further questions.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  9. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Steve,

    Thanks for your input.

    His record shows he was posted to BNAF 1.8.1943 (presumably from MEF?) . From other files I’ve seen the terms BNAF/CMF about that time seem to indicate deployment to Italy.

    Steve
     

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