My Gramp was in the 6th Airborne and when we asked him why he had volunteered for this he always told us the same story. He had been training with his unit (possibly Sherwood Foresters) and they had been using live mortar rounds on peaty ground. Everytime they fired, the back two legs of the mortars would sink back into the mud a little and alter the elevation of the mortar rounds, until they shelled their own men. I don't know how many were killed or wounded, but he told us it was a lot. After this he decided he had a better chance of survival by joining the paras. When I spoke to a veteran recently he said this was quite common. My questions are: Have many other people come across incidents such as these? and What action was normally taken afterwards? Were people punished? Thanks
Hi Ben, I have come across several examples of these unfortunate accidents, one of which was discussed here on the forum: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/27622-rsm-r-ludgate-8th-btn-devonshire-regiment.html Apart from the one mentioned above, I am aware of two such mortar accidents during training for the first Chindit operation in 1943. Both took place in the Saugor training camp in India. In one of the incidents an officer was killed outright when his mortar platoon miscalculated their range measurements. The sten gun was also the cause of many injuries and at least one death on the same training program, notorious for jamming the weapon became a lottery to use and basically H&S nightmare. I would say that unless total negligence or malicious intent could be proved very little action would have been taken against the men involved? Steve.
During the war they planned for 13% casualties during training after the war when I was with them they expected 1% fatalities but it did go above that in my battalion one year. Punishments, unless any one had been very careless it was just one of those things. The propellant in some of the weapons was not always as good as it should be and at times would not to place were it was aimed. If some ones map reading was off then you could wind up in a live fire zone. I carried out many military exercises using live ammunition, area were strafed and bombed in front of you by aircraft while guns poured in covering fire.
Even INERT muntions could cause death and mayhem! I read once of a training accident with the solid concrete spigot round for the Blacker Bombard that smashed a row of Home Guard trainees down like chaff, killing two and maiming a third...!
I would guess that all Primary Training bases had their share of accidents and the casualties must have been accepted as par for the course. I found this personal little item that I posted on the forum back in 2007: I am reminded of the only experience I ever had with a misfire. It was in Jan 1945 and I was being re-trained as tank-crew at Rieti in the centre of Italy. We were firing 75 mm rounds from a Sherman mark IV and I had just loaded HE in the normal manner, that is, I, as loader, had just punched the shell into the breech and swung away to my left to avoid the recoil from hitting me in the shoulder. The gunner kicked the solinoid switch, I did my "swinging" action but NOTHING happened. Panic all round and then the three of us shot out of the turret hatch and madly scrambled away from the tank. "Where do you think you're going ?" bellowed the instructor and with much embarrassment (and not a little fear) we had to retread our steps, get back in the turret and go through the procedure of getting rid of a dud round. I still go cold at the memory and offer up a belated hymn of praise to all the instructors who faced death daily because of their students stupidity. Ron
Following Phylo's Home Guard post I have often wondered (when you see eg. Clive's HG headstones thread) how many HG died as a result of training accidents. I have a couple with shared DofD in my local Cemetery that I intend to look into. One problem could be that I understand any HG member who died in service (whether in road accident, air raid, compliations from cut finger etc) would qualify for a CWGC headstone so trying to tie down 'training' or 'combat' deaths could be very difficult. And of course one of the most infamous 'training exercise' disasters was at Slapton Sands prior to D-Day. Much debate still going on about that.
Ben - Grenade ranges were always good for accidents when recruits dropped them in the pit - we had one at the Battle School at Barnard Castle when a grenade was dropped - fortunatley it had an 11 sec fuse and so we were all able to be long gone before it exploded- the other time was in North Africa when a four sec one was dropped -and not by a recruit - our Officer fell on it to save the lads- he was awarded a G.C. posthumously ! Cheers
15 members of 1/5th Welch were hit by friendly arty during training, still investigating that incident. When members of 83 Field Regiment were 'trained' in grenades at Herne Bay the Sergeant Major stood by to deal with anyone fluffing a grenade, thankfully no one did so, but with a short fuse I can only assume it would end similarly to Tom's story. Not quite a training accident but, 71 Anti-Tank Regiment had a man killed in Holland when kids were climbing on the ammunition truck he was on. One of them pulled a pin out of a grenade and let the lever go, seeing the imminent catastrophe about to hit all of the men around him and kids, he grabbed it, and dived on it. Was in Britain at War mag fairly recently.
After reading about the Reconnaissance Corps, which my late father was a member of the 4th Reconnaissance Regiment, I can say that they received excellent training. However, my father was at Middleton Camp in Lancashire on Overseas training prior to embarkation to North Africa and was the subject of a training accident. He was in the rear of a truck when a live phosphorus grenade was apparently misthrown and landed in the truck. My father said he was very lucky to receive spash burns to his face as his colleague next to him was killed. His record just shows him being hospitalized at an RAF hospital due to phosphorus burns and his return to unit. Accidents happen and my father never mentioned what his thoughts were towards whoever threw the handgrenade. Regards Tom
I can't give you any hard statistics. In my friend Old Hickory's Cav. troop, they lost two men during the Tennessee maneuvers. One was killed while standing up in a moving halftrack cab at night and was hit by a limb hanging out over the roadway. The other was struck by lightning while sleeping on the ground. This was in a troop of around 150 men and happened inside a two month period.
According to the War Office, 1,453 officers and 17,226 ORs of the British Army 'died of injury' from 1939 to 1945 - which I think is the category they used for training accidents, etc. (battle-related deaths, deaths from disease, and so on were treated seperately in the statistics). To put that into context, that's about 12% of all British Army deaths during the war. Best, Alan
In addition, I remember meeting a US officer who had concluded that the US Army had suffered fewer casualties DURING the Iraq War (1991) against to the natural wastage in training accidents, surfing, car, partying et al that would have occured at al in the US. Always thought that was interesting.
I did read that the American Army lost more men on the return from Iraq when they spent their back pay and purchased huge motorcycles then came a cropper.
I understand that a Navy Captain would face a court martial if he lost his ship (Is this right?) If it is so, it would seem logical for an officer in the army to have to go through the same if he lost a large number of men while on a training exercise? Does anyone know if anything like this existed? Thanks
Ben, I am no expert on Naval discipline and stand to be corrected, but I would assume for the Captain to be the subject of a Court's Martial, he would have had to be suspected of deliberately and knowingly placing his ship in danger. ie, Failing to zig-zag when a submarine(s) were known to be in the area, sailing into known shallows and grounding etc. Regards Tom
I understand that a Navy Captain would face a court martial if he lost his ship (Is this right?) I believe so. It's important to note however that the procedure wasn't necessarily to punish the captain, or indeed anyone else, but rather to establish the exact circumstances in which his ship was lost. For that reason, as I understand it, the inquiry was sometimes skipped if the reason for the ship's sinking was self-evident (e.g. through enemy action). Best, Alan
There are several Brits and Frenchmen buried in the local cemetery here, who died in aircraft training mishaps.
That's how I understood it as well. Not so much an attempt to punish the Captain, but to understand why a ship had been lost. I just wonder if an infantry officer lost a significant number of men in training whether the same level of scrutiny would be placed on him. As I said in my original post, I don't know how many men died in my Gramp's training incident, but I find it hard to believe that an officer could return back after losing several men while training and not come under some scrutiny. Surely the buck would stop with the officer commanding the men involved? Thanks Ben I believe so. It's important to note however that the procedure wasn't necessarily to punish the captain, or indeed anyone else, but rather to establish the exact circumstances in which his ship was lost. For that reason, as I understand it, the inquiry was sometimes skipped if the reason for the ship's sinking was self-evident (e.g. through enemy action). Best, Alan
I believe that it is a board of Enquiry that would be set up after the loss of a ship. This being the case following the loss of H.M.S. Hood. This enquiry would be a full investigation of the events leading up to the loss and if anyone is thought to be blameworthy then Court Martial proceedings could follow. Regards Tom